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Why Did Rome Fall—And Why Does It Matter Now? [Victor Davis Hanson]
pajamasmedia.com ^ | February 11, 2010 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 02/12/2010 5:58:58 AM PST by Tolik

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To: Tolik

A storehouse of knowledge! Thank you, and bookmark.


21 posted on 02/12/2010 6:45:08 AM PST by BlueStateBlues (Blue State business, Red State heart. . . . .Palin 2012----can't come soon enough!)
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To: Tolik

There is a very ironic lesson to be learned from the Byzantine Empire, the Emperor Justinian I and Empress Theodora, the Nika Riots, that almost overthrew their empire, the factions involved, and the results of having a strong leader.

To start with, there were four major political parties/gangs/gambling leagues in Constantinople. They were called the Blues, the Greens, the Reds and the Whites. While Justinian favored the Blues, the Blues had ambitions to politically achieve rule over the empire.

In this they were joined with the more radical Greens, who wanted to violently overthrow Justinian and seize power. The Reds and the Whites were loyal to their empire and their emperor.

Justinian I was a very able administrator in running the business of the Empire, but he was not a popular favorite. In this he was complemented by his wife, Theodora, who had been a prostitute or dancer, and who had a deep understanding of the mob, and was popular in her own right. She was also a very strong person.

The Nika riots began with the arrest of some of the Blue and Green leaders for murder. And while Justinian was willing to commute their sentence, the Blue and Green factions demanded their full pardon, which would amount to royal approval of the murders they had committed, putting them above the law.

In demanding these full pardons, they laid siege to the palace for a time, and burned almost half the city, then decided to crown their own emperor to replace Justinian and Theodora, in the great Hippodrome (coliseum).

Justinian lost his nerve and decided to flee, but Theodora put her foot down and refused to leave. So other arrangements were made.

With the Blues and Greens assembled in the Hippodrome for the coronation, a single slave of the Emperor appeared, carrying a bag of gold. He went to the section where the Blue leaders were sitting, and offered them the gold. Accepting the offer, the Blues got up and filed out of the Hippodrome. They had been bought off.

Puzzled by this, the Greens attitude was “More for us! Now we will rule!”, not realizing that two large military units with loyal generals had been deployed, surrounding the Hippodrome.

At a signal, then entered the Hippodrome, and the Green faction, about 30,000 of them, were no more.

By this action, the slaughter of traitorous rebels, the life of the Byzantine Empire was extended by perhaps 200 years. To this day, the Empress Theodora, this strong woman, is considered a saint of the Orthodox church.

Once again, it is interesting to imagine the parallels with today’s Blues and Greens.


22 posted on 02/12/2010 6:47:52 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: Tolik

Bookmark


23 posted on 02/12/2010 6:50:52 AM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Tolik

I’ll throw out another possibility. The rest of the world became wealthier and more advanced militarily — so the Romans with a small population couldn’t surpress other people as effectively anymore.


24 posted on 02/12/2010 6:51:25 AM PST by Woebama (Never, never, never quit)
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To: Woebama

Or the Roman military, discerning a vacuum in leadership, strove to fill it and made the classic blunder of diversifying into a product line that they knew jack about.


25 posted on 02/12/2010 6:55:07 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (STOP the Tyrananny State.)
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To: Woebama

Applying what you said to the modern world. If America’s enemies become very powerful militarily, again, I am sure that it will shake us from sleeping. If the opponents become more powerful economically, but otherwise are in various form of democracy, then America can continue slumber, but the American legacy will live on through these newcomers who became rich by emulating America.


26 posted on 02/12/2010 7:01:38 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik
So the rise of latifundia

Sent me to the dictionary for that one!

When I first saw it I thought it was latintifada and Hanson was making up a clever new word, but I guess I'm the one who made it up?

ML/NJ

27 posted on 02/12/2010 7:02:53 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: Tolik

America has fallen. Scott Brown has heard the call and will start on the way to recovery.

That said, it’s up to the rest of us to make sure we are back on track to be the great country we were.


28 posted on 02/12/2010 7:03:32 AM PST by Carley (Are you better off now than one year ago? HELL NO!!!!!)
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To: Tolik

Great article.


29 posted on 02/12/2010 7:14:00 AM PST by iowamark
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To: Monterrosa-24
TRue, but it was prescient in it's statement and it was the fall of the Republic to a series of dictatorial emperors to which he was referring and though the empire continued, it was never the sort of republic it had been.

I was being somewhat cavalier, but it was a combination of a loss of interest in self-government/pre-occupation with hand-outs and the huge influx of non-citizens to do the work that the citizens wouldn't do...sort of sounds familiar doesn't it.

I am once more reminded of how happy I am that I have no children to worry about. I greatly fear for the future of the progeny of those who have.

America is probably lost forever. How do you get a populace addicted to governmental largess to renounce their addiction? Certainly not through education, that is already destroyed and become indoctrination into statism.
30 posted on 02/12/2010 7:23:02 AM PST by Sudetenland (Slow to anger but terrible in vengence...such is the character of the American people.)
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To: Tolik
The strange thing is that these wild swings in civilization are at their bases psychological: decline is one of choice rather than necessity. Plague or lead poisoning or famine did not destroy Rome. We could balance our budget tomorrow without a great deal of sacrifice; we could eliminate 10% worth of government spending that is not essential; we could create our own energy with massive nuclear power investment, and more extraction of gas, oil, and coal. We could instill a tragic rather than therapeutic world view that would mean more responsibilities rather than endlessly more rights. We could do this all right—but too many feel such medicine is worse than the malady, and so we probably won’t and can’t. An enjoyable slow decline is apparently  preferable to a short, but painful rethinking and rebirth.

What is never mentioned is that automation and computerization have made many workers redundant and not needed and I also white collar workers too such as accountants and lawyers.. Many fine and skilled people are in this category. Future development is not automatic bliss due to some capitalist theories of an ever expanding economic pie that I hear Rush Limbaugh and other talking up.  Great in theory and I like it on an emotional level

We could bring back all manufacturing from China/Asia and we would still be stuck with not enough blue collar jobs by a long shot. All due to computerization, robotics and automation
So the next question is -- What to do with those who want to work and love to work but whose labor is not needed
Another problem is that wealth gets more concentrated as we have a surplus of workers because wages/salaries plummet
Only exception is gubbermint workers/layabouts and very highly skilled workers

31 posted on 02/12/2010 7:29:16 AM PST by dennisw (It all comes 'round again --Fairport)
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To: Cacique

bookmark bump


32 posted on 02/12/2010 7:30:13 AM PST by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: Sudetenland
“...How do you get a populace addicted to governmental largess to renounce their addiction? Certainly not through education, that is already destroyed and become indoctrination into statism...”

If we had even 60 percent of the productive types as ethical, strong, wise, and patriotic we would have a chance but it is very disheartening to see a Yankee state like Iowa which is still at least 92 percent White go heavy for a man like Obama. So many hardworking Whites have gone completely clueless, have no sense of self, and of course in some areas there are huge numbers of Whites on welfare.

The hillbillies of a place like Hancock County, Tennessee were poor but proud and independent in the old days. Today they have satellite dishes, food stamps, and are knowledgeable of all things Hollywood.

33 posted on 02/12/2010 7:39:42 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: Tolik

Sobering reading. Thanks for the post.


34 posted on 02/12/2010 7:40:33 AM PST by reagan_fanatic (The liberals are asking us to give Obama more time. Is 25 to life enough?)
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To: Tolik

Yah, but now that I’m a father, I want freedom here and for my daughter, not somewhere else as a legacy of this nations impact on the world!


35 posted on 02/12/2010 7:41:54 AM PST by Woebama (Never, never, never quit)
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To: Tolik

BTTT


36 posted on 02/12/2010 7:46:53 AM PST by spodefly (I have posted nothing but BTTT over 1000 times!!!)
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To: Woebama

Amen to that!


37 posted on 02/12/2010 7:54:15 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik

Thanks tolik - great read.


38 posted on 02/12/2010 7:55:27 AM PST by GOPJ (There could be no honor in sure success, but much might be wrested from a sure defeat-TE Lawrence)
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To: frogjerk
Augustine was the last great Roman writer. Yet he understood the Empire was doomed and could never be restored.

The City Of God written as an answer to why Rome would pass into history and the world be created anew.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find only things evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelogus

39 posted on 02/12/2010 8:01:32 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Tolik

The strange thing is that these wild swings in civilization are at their bases psychological: decline is one of choice rather than necessity.

Yes it is...try telling the welfare piker with an SUV, 3 squares a day, nice clothes, free rent, and a flat screen TV that they need to provide for themselves. Their answer is they deserve or are entitled to such luxury - that working will not pay as well as welfare. We are too stupid to discriminate between those that can’t work and those that can but don’t. We are a stupid venal people and will soon be a second rate country - just as bammy has foretold.


40 posted on 02/12/2010 8:21:35 AM PST by equalitybeforethelaw
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