City to vote on assault rifle buy; Cops want an M-4 in every patrol car

El Paso, Inc. ^ | Timothy Roberts

[greatdefender]

Members of the El Paso City Council appear to favor the purchase of over 1,000 assault rifles for the police department, which says it needs them to protect the city from increasingly better armed criminals.

The council will be asked on Tuesday to approve the purchase of 1,145 assault rifles at a cost of $772,646. That would supply all patrol officers with the civilian version of the M-4 military rifle. The lowest bid is from recommended bidder GT Distributors Inc. of Austin.

The money would come from a federal grant of up to $899,287, funds targeted at stimulating the economy.

The case for the purchase is usually couched in terms of the drug-cartel violence in Juárez.

“We definitely don’t want our police officers to be outgunned by any cartel operatives who might come over to El Paso,” says El Paso Mayor John Cook.

But in the wake of shootings at Fort Hood and incidents here involving soldiers, some council members say they are also concerned about errant soldiers.

Peter Pacillas, assistant chief for training and special operations, does not single out soldiers for concern. He says, “Anybody who has the capability of using a high-caliber weapon is a concern for us.”

Gun seizures

Three incidents in El Paso involving soldiers last year underscore those concerns. In each, soldiers used handguns, but police say the logical defense would be a rifle capable of shooting accurately over a significant distance.

Last April, a Chapin High School student was killed by a solider who was firing from across the street. The soldier, according to the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division, used a handgun. He was charged with murder.

In August, a solider was charged with shooting another solider at an El Paso bar. That, too involved a hand gun, according to the CID.

But perhaps the most notorious case cam in June, when an 18-year-old soldier stationed at Fort Bliss was charged in connection with the contract killing of a Mexican drug cartel lieutenant who also was a police informant. According to the El Paso Police Department, Michael Jackson Apodaca used a semi-automatic handgun.

According to statistics kept by the police department, the total number of guns seized by the police during searches and arrests has dropped over the last three years. What is worrisome, police say, is the increase in the percentage of those guns that are automatic or semi-automatic. Being able to fire more lead in a short period of time makes the criminal more dangerous.

Police seized 287 weapons in 2007, 265 in 2008 and only 253 in 2009. But the percentage of those weapons that are automatic or semi-automatic rose from 46.7 percent in 2007, to 50.2 percent in 2008, and to 59.7 percent in 2009.

“I feel comfortable with the request,” says Beto O’Rourke, city representative for the Westside District 8. “We are not trying to outgun the people with guns in our community, but to protect the public.”

Gang worries

Susie Byrd, District 2 representative, says she still has some questions.

“You always want police to approach any situation with an abundance of caution,” she says. “Having big assault rifles might embolden less cautious behavior.”

But she says she also worries about the violence across the border and the possible impact of military gangs.

According to the National Gang Threat Assessment for 2009, issued by the U.S. Department of Justice, the number of gang members who are in or who have come out of the military is unknown.

But, the report says, “the threat that (gang members with military training) pose to law enforcement is potentially significant, particularly if gang members trained in weapons, tactics and planning pass this instruction on to other gang members.”

A spokesman for the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division acknowledges the presence of criminal gangs in the military, but says the problem is not rampant.

“We certainly recognize this is a serious issue, and each incident or credible allegation will be fully investigated,” says Chris Grey, Army CID chief of public affairs.

The population increase caused by expansion at Fort Bliss may become a factor in crime levels, says city Rep. Steve Ortega, District 7.

“If you add to that a population coming back from an extremely violent environment integrating with the civilian population, we want to make sure that the police department has all the resources it needs to make us the safest city in the nation.”

For West Side District 1 Rep. Ann Morgan Lilly, the decision was relatively easy.

“If the police are asking for them (the assault rifles) and need them, that’s OK,” she says. “(Police Chief) Greg Allen never asks for anything he doesn’t need.”

If council approves the purchase, the M-4s could be here in 90 days. Police officials say all officers will receive 40 hours of training before putting the weapons in the locked racks of their patrol car trunks.

[randomhero97]

I did carry the M16A1 in Nam, not my Daddy.

Just joking with ya, my dad and his brothers are Nam vets as well. I have heard first hand accounts of special operators taking AKs off of dead VC and throwing their M16 out, lol.

I like the M1As, but I think the .308 cartridge is more for a main battle rifle while the 5.56/.223 is an intermediary round. The M1A Scout is a pretty sweet rifle, though.

[Mister Muggles]

Sure did...but not so much said about the kidnapping, drug-running Mexican SCUM Juarez cartels...the real threat.

According to the story...El Paso cops want these rifles to combat Ft Bliss soldiers with handguns.

[El Gato]

Not really sure about the need for an M-4 in every car, but $674.80 per rifle is at least a reasonable price.

Very reasonable indeed. That is for a volume purchase of course, but We The People could probably get them for ~$800 or so, absent the ban on them for mere citizens. Well maybe a bit more, at first, due to pent up demand. I paid about that for my semi-auto AR-15 carbine, but that was a kit plus separately purchased lower receiver. But if *I* can put one together, anyone can. It's actually pretty accurate too.

[El Gato]

I for one don’t want the local governments armed like the 101st Airborne.

The 101st had M203 grenade launchers, AT4 anti armor rockets, and lots of other goodies, including artillery and air support (rotary wing). Few departments woudl have any need for that stuff, but any did, it would be border cities, like El Paso.

Although guarding the border and preventing invasions, by foreign governments or other foreign entitites, is really the job of the Federal Government, per Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution. However, Article I, Section 10, does allow states to "engage in War", if actually invaded or in imminent danger that will not admit delay. Seems to fit the situation from Brownsville to San Diego. But that's a job for the Militia including it's organized components the National Guard and State Guard, not city cops.

[El Gato]

And the reason I can't get this price even if I buy 10 is because?????

They are buying around 1,000. Plus it's a different market. The civilian market has been Obamasized, that is heated up by fear of what Obama might do next, once he gets past the Health Care thing.

You could buy a kit, say from Model One For $535, plus around $130-175 for the stripped lower. and you'd come pretty close. The upper comes assembled, you have to assemble the lower, but it's not that hard, and several "how to" sites are available, mit der pictures!

Stag Arms shows their lower for $135, but that's FFL price. (I think I did pretty well at $150 (or was it $175, well still not bad considering folks were selling them for $225 at the same show.)

[El Gato]

M4 is just fine. The barrel length is usually 16" and it's mainly a close-quarters weapon

Actually a real M4 has a 14.5" barrel. Although there is a commando version with an 11.5" barrel.

[DariusBane]

To answers:

Number one: I said that no federal dollars with their nasty strings should be attached to up arming ANY local law enforcement.
Number Two: I am well qualified to understand the differences between the armament of an infantry unit vs ar15’s but thanks for the heads up anyway.
Number Three: It should not be controversial within the ranks of liberty loving small government types to express a distrust of a large, powerful well funded domestic police force. That should NOT be a controversial statement.

The 2nd Amendment, if properly exercised would take care of the need for a professionally armed, full time quasi military police force. I just like the local, city, county, state and federal government to always have that gnawing sense of doubt... “Can we take them?”

[MrPiper]

You could buy a kit, say from Model One For $535....AR15?...no thanks...

I'll keep the TWO AK's I bought for that price years ago and my Remington 700 "deer rifle" for $300/ the close in work..... ;-)

[randomhero97]

Ah, good catch. I thought about it from a civilian standpoint.

[El Gato]

Is there a web site that’ll help with building your own?

Several. Here's one, Build Your Own AR15 that will sell you a step by step manual for $7. Cheap at twice the price IMHO. Although I used AR15.com and ShaneDaughtry.Com (real photos verses drawings) to assemble my lower. (Be sure to buy the pivot pin installation tool, it's cheap and makes the hardest step not the hardest at all). You'll also need the stock wrench or the multi wrench.

[El Gato]

Sure did...but not so much said about the kidnapping, drug-running Mexican SCUM Juarez cartels...the real threat

Wouldn't be politically correct, and might lead to problems, from Ms. Napalitano, getting the funds from Homeland Security

According to the story...El Paso cops want these rifles to combat Ft Bliss soldiers with handguns.

See, kissing Ms. N's butt. (Sorry about the disgusting image that produces. :) )

However I suspect the EPD knows what the real threat is.

[rbosque]

Thank you my friend. There’ll be a few more assembled for our side before too long.

[El Gato]

Peter Pacillas, assistant chief for training and special operations, does not single out soldiers for concern. He says, “Anybody who has the capability of using a high-caliber weapon is a concern for us.”

Geez Dude, you live in Texas, that's a heck of lot of people to be paranoid about. :)

Although I don't think I'd call 5.56 mm "high caliber", now 7.62 comes closer, but .50 would really be high caliber. Lot's of Texans have the latter two calibers in their "inventory".

Like these two (who are a mite older now, and the rifle actually belonged to FR's own Texas Cowboy, now standing post up yonder)

Even lil ole me (well OK BIG old me) has two 7.62 caliber rifles, no wait, three, almost forgot the (war) baby. :) I guess I better take her out for a "spin" to refresh my memory. Although I'm thinking about giving her to my wife, but maybe I can pawn the Chinese SKS off on her, it would be more effective at stopping "varmints" anyway. She wouldn't want or have use for the H&K.

[El Gato]

I'll keep the TWO AK's I bought for that price years ago and my Remington 700 "deer rifle" for $300/ the close in work..... ;-)

Sounds Good to me. As I stated, the AR was my last purchase, just 'cause I wanted one. (plus consideration of ammunition availability in domestic contingeincies). Also have SKS, H&K in 7.62 NATO, and the war baby (.30 M1 Carbine).

[El Gato]

Thank you my friend. There’ll be a few more assembled for our side before too long.

You're welcom, that is why I posted the links.

[mad_as_he$$]

Since the major cause of police deaths is fratricide I think this is an industrial strength dumb idea. Most cops have the fire discipline of Arabs at a Saddam rally.

[brushcop]

I wish they would buy built 6.8SPC M4 configured rifles that way there would more 6.8 ammo in production.

Therein lies the problem, ammo production. During these uncertain times, it pays to have a caliber that is very common and depending on situation and your needs, available.

[TChris]

When I was a LEO, we had a Mini-14 in every car, along with the 12 ga.

[Seruzawa]

“During these uncertain times, it pays to have a caliber that is very common and depending on situation and your needs, available.”

In that case the police should have weapons based on the 30-06. I suggest they acquire BARs. LOL!