Posted on 12/15/2009 8:35:30 PM PST by Steelfish
Burial Cloth Found In Jerusalem Cave Casts Doubt On Authenticity of Turin Shroud
By MATTHEW KALMAN 16th December 2009
Archaeologists have discovered the first known burial shroud in Jerusalem from the time of Christ's crucifixion - and say it casts serious doubt on the claimed authenticity of the Turin Shroud.
Ancient shrouds from the period have been found before in the Holy Land, but never in Jerusalem. Researchers say the weave and design of the shroud discovered in a burial cave near Jerusalem's Old City are completely different to the Turin Shroud.
Discovery: The shrouded body of a man was found in this sealed chamber of a cave in the Hinnom Valley, overlooking the Old City of Jerusalem Radiocarbon tests and artefacts found in the cave prove almost beyond doubt that it was from the same time of Christ's death.
It was made with a simple two-way weave - not the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud, which textile experts say was introduced more than 1,000 years after Christ lived. And instead of being a single sheet like the famous item in Turin, the Jerusalem shroud is made up of several sections, with a separate piece for the head.
Professor Shimon Gibson, the archaeologist who discovered the tomb, said ancient writings and contemporary shrouds from other areas had suggested this design, and the Jerusalem shroud finally provided the physical evidence. The debate over the Turin Shroud will not go away. Last month a Vatican researcher said she had found the words 'Jesus Nazarene' on the shroud, proving it was the linen cloth which was wrapped around Christ's body.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Because . . . given the Robe etc.
I think it’s highly likely that Christ’s burial shroud was exceptional, too.
I worship and serve my Risen Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.
Good.
Many others are different on such scores whether they are aware of it or admit it, or not.
Not for certain... but the Jewish burial custom was to place a cloth binding under the jaw, behind the ears and up, tied over the crown of the head, to keep the mouth closed in death. The Sudarium(sweat cloth) of Oviedo (named for the Cathedral it's kept in since the sixth Century AD on Oviedo Spain), shows signs of having first covered the head of a man who was crucified, then used to cover his face while being carried in a face down position with a hand over his face (bloody hand print), and then being rolled diagonally like a kerchief into a rope like form that would be long enough to tie around a head to do service in just such a manner "about the head" as described in the Gospel.
Thank you... it comes from thirty years if study and following the science... and not accepting things at face value. This for example is based on work done TEN YEARS AGO... and is merely being trotted out again as if it is all new.
The claims about Jesus death certificate being found on the Shroud are also not new... and are more akin to seeing bunny rabbits in the clouds than anything real on the Shroud. The Shroud has been photographed so many times for anything to suddenly be found at this late date is patently absurd... and in fact it is a rehash of claims from 1978!
Wall looms could be pretty large. Large enough to make sail cloth...
The Shroud was made on a Wall Loom... and it was hank bleached. Soapwort fullered. Hand spun. All things done in the 1st Century and most likely not done in the medieval times when more modern weaving would have been the norm.
In addition there are many extant examples of three over one twill weavings from the period. I don't know where this idea that complex weaving only came about in the medieval period. The Egyptians were fine weavers as were the East Indians, the Chinese, and indeed the people of Palestine area.
There are other fine examples of the weavers art from the 1st Century that are extremely rare... such as examples of the rarest cloth in the world: byssus, which is native to the Eastern Mediterranean that still exist, that have been found in Egypt and Roman burials.
Thanks.
That would still be consistent with the shroud and it’s image, it seems to me.
Thanks much.
How could they tell it was done on a wall loom?
I would think it unlikely that twill was done on a wall loom.
Let’s worship the Savior, not souvenirs.
Worship the creator not His creation. Let me put a finer point on that for all:
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Can’t wait to share that with my daughter (pinged above) who greatly enjoys *conversations* with atheists... It tickles her to no end when she can point out flaws in their arguments. She’s going to LOVE using this line of debate, I just KNOW it! Thanks! :)
>>As a weaver . . . <<
This has nothing to do with anything and is very OT, but seriously, you do amaze me!
I’m lucky I can crochet!
I don't begrudge people whatever crutch they need to believe in God. It is the effort and the desire that God cares about, and while yes it is true that a man who needs no proof of God's existence or Jesus' life and resurrection in order to truly believe has a stronger faith than someone who looks for the physical evidence that Jesus may have left behind. But when it comes down to it I think as long as people strive to be good, to follow Christ's path of humility, love, and devotion to God, then how someone comes to their faith is less important than how they live their faith.
not totally off topic at all.
I have some EXPERIENCE with twill etc. and wide vs narrow looms . . . and weaving linen . . . . which have been important aspects of this topic.
The Lord has blessed [depending on viewpoint] me with a wide variety of interests and skills. I just wish I’d realized that with some level of conficence about 25 years earlier than I did.
Crochet . . . ah . . . during my PhD program, I crocheted a larger than kingsize rainbow colored bedspread out of RUG CRAFTERS RUG YARN. It was HEAVY—out of granny squares.
>>Crochet . . . ah . . . during my PhD program, I crocheted a larger than kingsize rainbow colored bedspread out of RUG CRAFTERS RUG YARN. It was HEAVY—out of granny squares.<<
I’m surely not as talented, but I do think I made that same pattern for my Best Friend’s first son when he was born.
Did each square look like it was ice cream cone shaped with six changes of yarn?
You took more trouble and were more talented than I.
I crocheted 3 rows of solid one color the length . . . or was it cross-ways . . . I forget . . . 3 or so rows of one color and then changed color.
WOW!!!!
So? What does “about” mean?
You can’t decide questions like that without the original language, and a lot of cultural information.
This is why there are Scripture scholars.
When you tell people not to worship “souvenirs,” you are asserting that they worship “souvenirs.”
That is a slander. Despite what you’ve learned from your Jack Chick Comics, Catholics worship God, and no one and nothing else.
Get used to it.
As Freeper 'donna' accurately implied in post #4, this is all designed "just in time for Christmas" to take a cheap shot at Christians.
Whether you believe the Shroud of Turin is what it is purported to be or not, it still holds a certain religious reverence for some Christians.
And every Christmas season you'll find the media and other leftist Christian bashers putting out the seasonal attacks.
To them and to you all, I say - MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
I would say that referring to a relic venerated by Catholics as a 'souvenir' gives me a pretty good indication of the 'mindset' of the commenter. Isn't a souvenir akin to some cheesy piece of schlock manufactured to give the tourist a cheap memory of a place or experience?
Say what you will, but I think if you examine your conscience you will find a deep seated dislike for the Church (Universal).
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