Posted on 12/07/2009 7:25:33 AM PST by oblomov
Introductory Remarks:
On December 7, 1941, U.S. military installations at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii were attacked by the Imperial Japanese Navy. Could this tragic event that resulted in over 3,000 Americans killed and injured in a single two-hour attack have been averted?
After 16 years of uncovering documents through the Freedom of Information Act, journalist and historian Robert Stinnett charges in his book, Day of Deceit, that U.S. government leaders at the highest level not only knew that a Japanese attack was imminent, but that they had deliberately engaged in policies intended to provoke the attack, in order to draw a reluctant, peace-loving American public into a war in Europe for good or ill. In contrast, historian and author Stephen Budiansky (see his book, Battle of Wits) believes that such charges are entirely unfounded and are based on misinterpretations of the historical record.
It’s been often said that “Truth is the first casualty of war.” Historians and policy experts now know that the official government claims, including those made by U.S. Presidents, that led to the Spanish-American War, World War I, Vietnam War, Gulf War, and other conflicts were deliberate misrepresentations of the facts in order to rally support for wars that the general public would otherwise not support. Was this also the case regarding the tragedy at Pearl Harbor and the U.S. entry into World War II—or are such charges false? We are very pleased to provide a debate between these two distinguished experts.
(Excerpt) Read more at independent.org ...
Given that the United States was the major oil exporter in the world, and that the United States was opposed to Japan’s war in China, that put them in a tight spot. Plus the fact that the fleet was at Pearl was a great provocation, since the home base was San Diego. This had, of course, been a quarrel long in the making, dating back to the Sino-Japanese War of 1896, and more particularly to the Spanish-American War. We were in the Phillipines in the first place because of the desire to keep the Japanese out of the Islands. In the ‘20s we kep poking the Japanese in the eye, which with our posture in the Washington Conference and in an exclusionary act that Calvin Coolidge mildly protested. It got worse, of course, after 1931.
MacArthur was paid $500,000 in gold by the Philippine government to not prepare a defense against the Japanese. As it was, the negotiations were a ruse and the Japanese attacked an unprepared MacArthur in force, with devastating consequences that have been said to be a worse blow to the US than Pearl Harbor.
Roosevelt learned of MacArthur's dereliction of duty and violation of US currency control laws. With documentation in hand, Roosevelt knew that he could destroy MacArthur if he ever got out of hand.
Yes, and Kiska.
Yeah, some kind of famous date ... a date that endures in ignominy, or something like that.
Variant JN25B (Baker with Aux. Tables, ..., etc.) is where the misdirection, disinformation, ... occurs.
There is also some question so to whether the Dutch - and others had penetrated JN25xyx prior to Pearl Harbor.
Not Pearl Harbor Day.
The “Roosevelt arranged for the death of 2000 American Sailors” thing.
The Japanese decided they needed the oil, rubber and other resources of Indochina, Malaya and the Dutch West Indies in addition to China. The main problem, of course, was the American presence in the Philippines and the Asiatic Fleet sitting athwart the lines of communication south. Yamamoto understood that taking out the Philippines would mean war with America and he understood just how vast our population and economic power was. Thus, the logic lead to the gamble that taking out the fleet at Pearl in addition to the Philippines would buy Japan enough time to consolidate it's conquests and achieve superiority in the Pacific. A number of people in Washington believed an attack was imminent, thus the several warnings sent to Pearl. Most, however, thought the blow would fall in the Philippines and not so far east as Pearl. The bigger scandal IMHO was MacArthur's lack of preparedness. He probably couldn't have defeated the invasion, but he took needless losses in the first blows.
Some Americans wanted to believe the Communist bloc hostility to America and the West was our fault. Some Americans believe Islamofascist hostility to America is our fault. Similarly, some Americans insist we, not the fascists, were somehow responsible for WWII. I don't buy it. Japan, Germany and Italy were all engaged in wars of aggression before we finally came into the war.
Tora Tora Tora fairly closely follows the At Dawn We Slept narrative, which to me is persuasive that our lack of preparedness was due to mistakes, not conspiracies.
I've always considered it evidence that Murphy's Law doesn't just sabotage us, it can also do in others.
It's a "what if" I don't want to play. What if they had been at Pearl? No Battle of the Coral Sea? New Guinea occupied? No Midway? Australia invaded? I just don't even want to think about it. Yamamoto may have been more right than he's been given credit for.
“If it was just a matter of letting Pearl Harbor happen, why didn’t FDR ask for a declaration of war against Germany on Dec. 8, instead of waiting until after Hitler’s declaration on Dec. 11?”
It wasn’t just a matter of letting Pearl Harbor happen, in my opinion. But fine, let’s say it was, they could easily be waiting for Germany to declare war. Or waiting for some contingency or another. There are a million causes for war. Probably would have gone with the old U-boat standby.
The idea, to me, that we only went to war with Germany because they declared war on us, when they possessed no threat outside of the threat that had existed on the high seas for a while, is outlandish. After all we had done, with lend-lease and repeatedly calling Germany the aggressor, how anyone can imagine we’d fight Japan and still leave Britain alone is beyond me.
There are some items to add however to expand the purview: Japan fought on the side of the Allies in WW I, mainly on behalf of the British in the Med as convoy escorts - as a result at that French place with all the mirrors, Japan got the so-called Mandates (e.g., Carolinas, ...) which were German; they also got "entree" into China as a trading partner - built railroads, etc., but, then China had this systemic problem - Mao that is. [Just who Lost China?]...
As to "preparedness" - the decision was made to supply arms to many countries out of US stock pre-Pearl Harbor, to include the newest and front line. Research, for example, why an advanced A-20 (HAVOC) check-ride crash yielded a French officer's body; why the Pacific Fleet was screaming for PBY's and got very few yet Britain got hundreds, why the US Army trained with sticks when tens of thousands of Springfield rifles plus tons ammunition went to Britain, why the B-17s arriving at Pearl Harbor on 7Dec41 were originally slotted to Britain, or ...
Just whose military was the US taxpayer buying to equip? The composition of Admiral Hart's fleet - no carriers, no battleships, one heavy cruiser, ... MacArthur called it a yatch club. It got no respect from the Japanese.
After 22Jun41, review the the Lend-Lease shipments and to whom. Those shipments adversely impacted American "preparedness."
“I’m not a ‘9/11 was an inside job’ type of guy, but now I’m starting to wonder—given our track record.”
9/11 being an “inside job” is a little different from the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories, in that the government would have had to plan and execute it, whereas all FDR did was let it happen. Of course, wackos like Jesse Ventura repeat endlessly that all they’re saying is the government has left unanswered questions, and such. But we know what they really mean to say is that the government did it.
Review the copy of the FDR draft of the "Day of Infamy" speech - on display at the FDRL at Hyde Park, NY - note what is edited out.
The German declaration of war against the US was delivered to the American embassy in Berlin - the cause noted was the several/many violations of neutrality by the US in the Atlantic - not the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor.;
If you can get the game “Great Naval Battles of the Atlantic III or IV”, they are all in there. It mentions what you say about the Alaska class. I think there are two of them. The Alaska does just fine as long as no one is shooting at her. The Iowa’s are quite impressive.
Which seems to come up like clockwork ... and has appeared on December 7 ... think there's a connection?
I see it multiple times a year, not just on December 7th. Conspiracy theories have no time limitations.
Why in the world do you believe America would have been involved in the Great War if the American President had simply maintained a real neutrality as even Wilsons first but sacked Sec of State Wm J Bryant demanded? And I must be missing something for in 1940 how could Taft have ignored the Soviet threat to a greater degree than giving them half of Europe and eventually throwing in China as Roosevelt did?
“Can you explain the fact that Japan never declared war on France, nor England before Dec.of 1941, even with the Tripartite Agreement in affect, which others have cited as proof that Germany would fight the U.S. if it came to blows with Japan?”
I can’t fully explain why Germany declared war on the U.S. I don’t think they should have. Perhaps they thought it would pressure Japan to join the war against Russia. Perhaps they were spooked into it by factors beyond my knowledge. In any case, it wasn’t because of the agreement itself, since like most international agreements it was defensive.
As for Japan, it didn’t declare war on France because it had no reason to. Nothing much to gain.
“giving them half of Europe and eventually throwing in China as Roosevelt did”
We can’t lay China on Roosevelt’s doorstep. But I’ve always wondered why more people don’t complain about the fact that we wasted all that blood and money on liberating Europe just to hand it over to another tyrant. For it’s pretty much just as much territory that Stalin conquered as what Hitler marched into, yes? The spectre of the holocaust and anti-Hitler propaganda probably did the job. That and the powerful unconscious desire to believe it wasn’t all worthless.
Roosevelt utterly ignored the plight of China in his determination to counter the European eastern front death war against Stalin.
Stalin capitalized upon the destruction of China by the Japanese. When did Stalin declare war against the Japanese?
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