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State Sovereignty: A Revolutionary Movement
Tenth Amendment Center ^ | Sept. 30, 2009 | Frank Chodorov

Posted on 09/30/2009 11:07:52 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake

The following article is from the June 1950 issue of analysis, vol. VI, no. 8, and was reprinted on LewRockwell.com

The Constitution that came out of the Philadelphia convention in 1787 was not acclaimed a “divine document.” On the contrary, the folks were rather skeptical about it and made ratification difficult. Yet there was no organized opposition. The Constitution simply ran head on into the individualism that had defied the arrogance of British Toryism. The backcountry, which started at the outskirts of the few seaboard cities, was as suspicious of a national government as if been hostile to foreign intervention. It was this spirit of self-reliance, of wanting to be let alone, that the ratifiers had to face and to which they addressed their argument in The Federalist.

Since the doctrine of States’ Rights is rooted in this early opposition to the Constitution, any effort to revive it should take into account the psychological barrier that confronted Madison and Hamilton. States’ Rights and individualism are historically related. It would seem to be good strategy, therefore, for a modern decentralization movement to plot its course by the same star. True, it is impossible to reconstruct the environment in which the individualism of early America was tempered; there is no haven of free land around. But the urge to be oneself, to work out one’s destiny without let or hindrance, is not a matter of environment; it is inherent in the human make-up. Even the socialist, for all his talk of immolation for the good of a mass, betrays by his very rebellion the altogether human urge for self-expression through free choice. We all have it in varying degrees; none is ever rid of it. The necessity of existence may impel us to make adjustment to conditions, but the ego thus put under restraint is not destroyed. The indestructibility of the ego is certified by the revolutionary movements that characterize the history of man. A States’ Rights movement is in essence a revolution, an opposition to the urgency of political power to limit choice and compel adjustment to its will and must rest its case on this fact. It is a certainty that any attempt to cut down the power of the central government is a fatuous gesture unless there is some feeling for freedom in the country.

At any rate, Hamilton and Madison and Jay were faced with the latent fear of political interference that was strong in the American of their day. It is for that reason that the logic of The Federalist is underlined with a note of supplication. In view of the high place the Constitution has attained in the hierarchy of American values, this pleading for its ratification is suggestive. Why was it necessary? For answer, we might recall what John Adams, writing in 1818, said about the revolution. It was effected, he declared, “before the war commenced. The revolution was in the hearts and minds of the people.” It was exactly what was in the hearts and minds of the people, their character, that constituted the opposition to nationalism in 1787 and explains why the Constitution put so many restrictions on the powers of the proposed government, not the least of which was the sharing of sovereignty with the state governments on a basis of equality. It could not have got by otherwise.

The Backbone of States’ Rights

Above all things these Americans cherished freedom. They had come to it by way of hardship and it stuck to their ribs. Many of them were but a generation away from indentured servitude; still quite alive was the memory of the horrors of migration; they had paid a high price for freedom. No government had given them their prized possession; they had literally hewn it out of the forest and they meant to keep it. All their experience with government, in the Europe from which they fled or in the colonies, taught them to distrust political power. Perhaps some government had its place in the scheme of life and might be tolerated - say, for organized opposition to the Indians or for the building of roads, and such things - but on the whole, the less of government the better. At best, it could never provide freedom, for that was something you got by your own effort; at worst, it could and would rob you of your freedom and therefore needed constant watching.

But how can one watch a government that operates from some distant seat, completely out of reach and behind a bulwark of laws of its own making? One has chores to do. The agrarian individualist was not taking chances. A government of neighbors, amenable to the will of neighbors, he would countenance and support, but he was intuitively opposed to a national establishment. The authors of the Constitution were thus put under the necessity of convincing him - and he was the unorganized majority - that the proposed government would in no way deprive him of the freedom he enjoyed under his home-made establishment; and for the title it would ask of him, in the way of taxes, it would provide him with services the local government could not furnish.

That is a distinguishing feature of The Federalist, a party platform replete with promises of what the party would not do. It is strange reading, when compared to modern political pledges, in its negative assurances. The delegates to the Philadelphia convention were sent there by the state governments with instructions to fix up some defects in the Articles of Confederation, for the Congress operating under that charter was not functioning satisfactorily; the general economy was laboring under the handicap of interstate tariffs, lack of a uniform money, difficulty in enforcing contractual obligations. These deficiencies were blocking trade, and trade was the great concern of the new country. But, when the delegates came up with a brand new Constitution, declaring that a mere overhauling of the Articles was impractical, suspicion was aroused. It was therefore incumbent on the framers of this Constitution to prove its harmlessness, as far as individual freedom was concerned. The new government would do what the states separately could not do and no more. Only when a state could not maintain order and called upon the government for help would it take part in local matters. In fact, the federal government would be little more than the foreign department for the state governments.

In paper number forty-five Madison writes: “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce; with which last part the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement and prosperity of the State.

“The operations of the federal government will be most extensive in times of war and danger; those of the State governments in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. . .” And so The Federalist goes on; promise after promise that the local governments shall remain immune.

Dualism and Individualism

Thus came the doctrine of States’ Rights. It came as a concession to the dominant individualism of the times, to the spirit of freedom that was in the people. Perhaps with some of the delegates it was a considered theory of government; there is reason to believe that most of them would as soon have left it out of the Constitution. Hamilton, at any rate, would most certainly have preferred a national rather than a federal government, with undivided sovereignty, but the genius of the American people was decidedly against him. The Constitution was, after all, only a political instrument, and as such had to confine its moralities to a preamble; in its working parts it had to conciliate divergent interests. The individualist was too important an interest to be ignored; he had to be appeased, and dual government was the price he demanded.

The doctrine of dualism came up for discussion many times between ratification and the Civil War. Almost always the debates were legalistic. On this ground, the nullifiers and the secessionists had the best of it, for nothing could be more certain than that the Union was conceived as a voluntary association of the thirteen states and that the states had existed as political entities for nearly a hundred and fifty years before the Constitution was thought of. Nor was there any question, as John C. Calhoun constantly insisted, that the Union was an organization of states, not of citizens; a Virginian was a Virginian before he was an American, and that was written into the Constitution as a condition of ratification.

But the debates were singularly free of the ideological background of the doctrine. States’ Rights was invoked in support of sectional and economic interests rather than to protect the immunities of the individual from federal encroachment. In 1814 the New England manufacturers brought it up; before the Civil War the South made much of nullification and secession because of its tariff disabilities. If the present embryonic movement to restore some measure of local autonomy is to achieve any success, it must go back to beginnings; it must make its appeal to the unquenchable yearning for freedom; it must convince the American that his best chance for a good and freer life is under the aegis of a government of neighbors.

The Theory of Government

It has always been the boast of States’ Righters that they were the true Constitutionalists, that they adhered to the letter as well as to the spirit of the original document. The evidence supports the claim. To be consistent, the current crop of fundamentalists might look to the basic theory of government written into the Constitution. This theory, borrowed from John Locke, holds that the only purpose of government, and its only competence, is to protect private property. If it presumes to go beyond that function it is guilty of misfeasance; if it fails to perform that function it is derelict in its duty. “The first object of government,” says Madison in the tenth number of The Federalist, is the protection of “the diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of private property originate.” From that theory, despite their willingness to make compromises, the Founding Fathers never deviated.

From the standpoint of this theory of government, the Constitution has not only been violated, it has been destroyed. What exists now is only a faulty facsimile of the original document. The process of mutilation began a long time ago, in the Jackson Administration, when political gangsterism announced that “to the victors belong the spoils.” But not until the Sixteenth Amendment was incorporated into the Constitution was its character completely altered. The income tax insinuated. a theory of government quite unknown to the Founding Fathers, holding that the function of government is to act as pater familias to society as a whole. To perform that role, the government must have access to all that is produced, as a matter of right, just as a feudal baron might lay claim to the fruits of his vassals’ labor. This, of course, is a complete rejection of the right of private property; what the citizen may retain from his earnings is a concession, revocable at will. The citizen thus becomes a subject. For Constitutional support, this theory of government takes recourse in the ambiguous “general welfare” clause.

The “general welfare” clause meant different things to different members of the Constitutional Convention; according to Madison it was the subject of much bitter debate. But of one thing we can be sure, and that is that it meant nothing like the New Deal interpretation to any of them. It could not have justified in their minds the investment of tax-money in government ventures competing with private industry, or the regulating and restricting of enterprise even to the extent of stifling it; and a system of doles was simply unthinkable. For, the economic thinking of the day was singularly laissez faire, and the idea of government intervention in one’s way of making a living was abhorrent to these recent revolutionists. In the context of their economic philosophy the general welfare was promoted only by production. The wealth of the nation is the sum total of the wealth of the citizens; the government might extract from it but could not contribute anything to it. To them the only thing the government could do to promote the general welfare, in the economic field, was to provide protection “for the diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate.” Having done that it should get out of the way.

The Business of Politics

If, as Charles A. Beard has so clearly shown, the Constitution was an “economic instrument,” if “every fundamental appeal in it is to some material and substantial interest,” does that invalidate its basic theory of government? To be sure, the Founding Fathers made concessions to the slave trade, the landed gentry, the money speculators and the protection-seeking industrialists. In so doing they simply accepted what the mores sanctioned. The business of the politician is not to improve upon the intelligence and conscience of his times, but rather to take what he finds and write and enforce the rules of the game accordingly. Whenever he tries to make men better than they are, or their understanding permits them to be, he is assuming a capacity he does not have and is courting trouble. The Founding Fathers made concessions to pressure-groups, to be sure; but when did politicians do otherwise? Can they do anything else? Even where the politician presumably abolishes all special privilege, as in totalitarian regimes, he simply makes of himself the sole beneficiary of all special privilege. The moralist’s passion for a society free of special privilege will be satisfied, if it ever is, by some mutation in the nature or intelligence of man; it will never come by way of politics.

It is beside the point to criticize the Founding Fathers for failure to distinguish between property got by one’s own labor and property got by privilege. The distinction was quite unknown then and, except in the ivory tower of moral philosophy, is quite unknown now. The Constitution concerned itself with the principle of private property, not with a definition of it, and our present concern should be with that principle. Is the individual in better case under a regime that guarantees security of possession and enjoyment, or does he prosper better under a regime that confiscates all production and doles it out according to a formula of its own design? Putting aside the iniquities that grow up under the institution of private property, or the perversion of it, is it not, nevertheless, more conducive to the general welfare than State Capitalism? A States’ Rights movement must face that question squarely.

Origin of Private Property

The answer to that question must be sought in first principles. Why does a man produce? Obviously, to satisfy his desires, and desires are personal, not collective. If he is deprived of the fruits of his labors, by marauders or the government, the profit in laboring is gone, and if the defalcations persist he loses interest in production. The need of living impels him to produce what he can consume immediately, but the uncertainty of possession dissuades him from accumulating; he does not save, he does not put by any capital. Under compulsion, as in slavery or a totalitarian regime, he will exert himself to produce more than he consumes only because of the desire to avoid pain, but his output will be in proportion to the constancy of surveillance and the certainty of punishment. The slave is a poor producer simply because he has no interest in production.

On the other hand, if possession and enjoyment is secure, the urge to produce knows no bounds. For the desires of man are without limit. His first need is food, but with a plenitude of that commodity on hand, or easily obtainable, he conjures up from his imagination a desire for tablecloth, napkin, and, at long last, music with his meals. The humble hut that was the pioneer’s castle is replaced with a mansion ablaze with electric light and equipped with hot-and-cold running water - only because he has been able, under private property, to accumulate a superfluity of wealth. The progress of civilization, the advancement in the sciences and arts, is in proportion to the degree of private property permitted in the going modus vivendi, and retrogression follows from the discouragement of production where confiscation is the general practice. A society of thieves cannot prosper.

The principle of private property, then, stems from the composition of the human being. And the general welfare, or the aggregate of production, is promoted only by the certainty of possession and enjoyment. That is the underlying thought of the laissez faire philosophy which, at the time the Constitution was framed, was accepted as axiomatic.

It was, indeed, a mass attack on private property that spurred the Founding Fathers in their work and furnished them with ammunition in their fight for ratification. In Massachusetts, a mob of farmers, burdened with mortgages and taxation, had attempted to force the state government to issue fiat money with which they could rid themselves of their obligations. Whether or not their grievances were justifiable, their action was a threat to the principle of private property, to which even these farmers held; they would have been in the forefront of a fight to retain possession of their holdings. However, the danger of mob action put the Fathers on their guard; they wrote into the Constitution provisions which, they expected, would prevent a majority, having got hold of the reins of government, from executing a policy of confiscation. The system of checks and balances was designed as a bulwark of private property.

States’ Rights and Private Property

Under these restrictions, which tended to keep the federal government weak and off-balance, the country did well for a century and a half. Private property was fairly safe and the wealth of the nation multiplied; the general welfare improved. But the spirit of spoliation grew apace, ever encouraged and exploited by self-seeking politicians. By means of amendments, interpretations and political subterfuge, the checks and balances were finally eased out of the Constitution. The “mob” so feared by Madison and Hamilton did in our time get control of political power and proceeded to use it as predicted; finding justification in a perversion of the “general welfare” clause, political gangsterism has put the government machinery to purposes other than the protection of “the diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate.” Private property is no longer a tenet of the American creed.

Because the human being is ever intent on improving his circumstances, striving always despite handicaps and hindrances, the effect on the general welfare from the disregard of private property is slow in showing itself. It will do so in due time. Already labor is looked upon as a useless occupation when doles are available, and investment in enterprise of a long-term nature is regarded as folly. That the American standard of living must decline, that our civilization must sink to a lower and lower level, is a certainty to which the history of intervention testifies. Politics may deny private property but it cannot prevent the consequences of its action.

The issue is clear. Is it possible to stem the tide by a strengthening of our state governments? Can our state governments provide some protection for private property, now denied by the federal government? As a patriotic gesture, and in the interest of future generations, the effort should be made. A States’ Rights movement dedicated to that effort could well call upon the shades of the Founding Fathers for support; they favored a federal government because they saw in it a protection for private property; now that the federal government has become an instrument of spoliation, would not the Founding Fathers join up with a States’ Rights movement so dedicated? Even Hamilton should be a States’ Righter these days.

Frank Chodorov (1887-1966), one of the great libertarians of the Old Right, was the founder of the Intercollegiate Society of Individualists and author of such books as The Income Tax: Root of All Evil. Here he is on “Taxation Is Robbery.” And here is Murray Rothbard’s obituary of Chodorov.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 10thamendment; donttreadonme; liberty; statesrights
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To: MrB
it would have made no difference due to the men who sought power over other men.

Probably true. Some problems are insoluable. There are other flaws in the USA that the FRAMERS can't be blamed for. We're much too big, for one thing. You can blame Jefferson a little, for the Louisiana Purchase, which IIRC, was unconstitutional. But even all that was probably inevitable. In short, we were doomed from the start. But thats life.

41 posted on 10/01/2009 12:39:25 PM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: ForGod'sSake
Framing the debate in a constitutionally illiterate populace will be a trick I suspect.

Exactly so. The simpler the argument, the easier our job will be. Everyone understands "jurisdiction"; and, agree or disagree, most will at least understand the jurisdictional issue at stake in this debate, viz. federal vs. state.

On the surface at least it would appear The States would have the upper hand. Which only seems natural since The States are the nearer governing body to The People.

I couldn't agree more. But that's political theory, and what we need is a practical argument to pound into the heads of public-skool victims. As you know, there aren't enough John C. Calhouns out there to save this nation, and the Lincoln-Douglas debates wouldn't draw enough of an audience today to fill a Yugo.

Our strategy requires an easy-to-wield weapon: a simple, straightforward, easy-to-understand argument with clear and consise points. The battleground should be issues of particular interest to the states engaged (gun manufacture in Montana, offshore drilling in Louisiana, etc.)

It'll be an assault on many fronts, and some states may need to shift ground in order to exploit weak spots. The objective is to force D.C. to retreat on one front or other. Then we use our momentum to exploit the hole, and before you know it, they'll be in full flight and we can regain as much ground as the Founding Fathers left in our possession.
42 posted on 10/01/2009 12:43:00 PM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: ForGod'sSake

It’s not even debatable. Rush and others failed to recognize correct usage of the term. They heard negative and thought “bad.” When it doesn’t mean that. Obama was lamenting a lack of “positive” rights, which is fine to criticize. Those are socialist rights—benefits. Right to a living wage, etc. But the rights in the bill of rights, many of them anyway, are properly described as negative rights. I assume Rush was just ignorant.


43 posted on 10/01/2009 12:43:12 PM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: ForGod'sSake
I don't like the term "states' rights", because states have no rights. (If you think I'm wrong, look for any form of the word "right" in relation to a state or states in the Constitution.)

God gave rights to man, and man created states (governments) to secure those rights.

I think it's a simple (but very important) question of jurisdiction, not "rights".

The citizens of a state, who have rights, grant limited, enumerated powers to governments at the state and the federal levels. The Constitution clearly restricts the powers of the US government to enumerated matters and specifically reserves all other powers to the states or to the people.

"Rights" is not the correct word here. This is about powers and jurisdiction. Citizens have rights.

44 posted on 10/01/2009 12:46:03 PM PDT by TChris (There is no freedom without the possibility of failure.)
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To: ForGod'sSake
...Randy Brogdon, is running for Ohlahoma Governor again.

I'd heard that, but it seems to me there was already another conservative player in the running but don't recall right off hand who it may have been. The primary might be fun, eh?

I don't know how much more Conservative and Liberty-oriented the other candidate could be, but Brogdon appears to be the real deal

From Wiki: In all of his six years of service OCPAC selected him as "Senate Legislator of the Year." for having the highest conservative voting record in the Senate. In 2005 Senator Brogdon was the first senator in 20 years to receive a 100% on the Conservative Vote Index. For the 2005-2006 legislative session he was elected to a leadership position by his caucus to serve as Senate Republican Whip and in 2007-2008 he served as the Assistant Republican Floor Leader.

In 2007 he was the recipient of the Phyllis Schlafly Oklahoma Eagle Award for his consistent support of Constitutional Conservative legislation.

In 2008 he was appointed as chairman of Appropriation of Transportation and General Government sub-committee.

On April 18, 2009 Senator Brogdon announced his candidacy for Oklahoma Governor in the 2010 election.

From OkeSenate.gov:Since being elected State Senator in 2002, Randy Brogdon has championed legislation such as "The Taxpayer Bill of Rights" (TABOR) and SB 1 "The Taxpayer Transparency Act." In addition, he was successful in leading the charge to opt out of the federal "REAL ID ACT" of 2005.

Randy Brogdon is also the author of SJR 10, otherwise known as the 10th Amendment Resolution. This resolution is designed to protect states rights and prevent the federal government from overexerting its legislative power. His efforts on the 10th Amendment Initiative have brought him national attention from several media outlets across the country. In March of 2009, Senator Brogdon was invited to speak to the Pennsylvania State Legislature about his work on the 10th Amendment Initiative.

Maybe the other candidate is a good guy, but Randy Brodgon's accomplishments look to me like "the gold standard" for what I would hope to find in a candidate for Governor of my State.

45 posted on 10/01/2009 1:10:18 PM PDT by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Neoliberalnot
The best scenario is that we as states just start ignoring them and their edicts.

Well, as much as anything else, it's a money thang. We have reviewed/discussed/debated several ideas on these 10th Amendment threads about how a State or States could go about telling the federales to take their fed funds and stuffing 'em! Probably some workable ideas around, it's just a matter of taking that first step; the journey of a thousand miles and all... Who'll be the first???

46 posted on 10/01/2009 3:26:09 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: The Comedian

You forgot the one about literacy. That is to say, one should be able to pass a short quiz to determine if one understands how our system of government works. There goes half the electorate! I daresay the government left standing would be a far superior to what we have now. NONE of which is likely to happen in my lifetime.


47 posted on 10/01/2009 3:33:36 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: Huck
But it's too late. All the damage has been done.

While I agree there has been considerable damage done to our system of government I don't believe it's too late to get the ship back on course. Just as the libtards felt 2008 was a mandate for "change", I think 2010 could send a chill down the spines of the ne'er do wells in DC. We The People have got to send a clear and unambiguous message to the dregs in DC that we're not going to put up with their foolishness any longer. Not making any predictions but can you imagine what would happen if there was a CONSERVATIVE house cleaning in 2010 and most of the trash was hauled off?

For some perspective, the Revolutionary War and the Civil War were decades in the oven before coming to a fruition. IMO, we're still in the early stages of a new revolutionary war. It may come do blows but it certainly doesn't have to. But the nature of tyrants is such that they will have to be beaten to a bloody pulp before we gain their attention. Problem is, tyrants rarely give up anything so patriots will have to be just as diligent in our dissent. Are we up to it?

48 posted on 10/01/2009 3:56:25 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake
I consider the whole project doomed. It's amazing we've done this well. When you consider that the FIRST congress couldn't agree on what was constitutional, you know we're in trouble! James Madison and his crowd opposed a national bank as unconstitutional, then later as president, Madison created a national bank. If those guys couldn't sort it out, you know it was bad news.

Two big mistakes they made, besides the various clauses that serve as gaping loopholes (necessary n proper, general welfare etc) were not designing into the document how constitutional questions would be resolved, and not providing a means for secession.

You can't go back and undo the Civil War, and I daresay youd have a hard time repealing the 14th amendment. We've got all this SCOTUS precedent that won't be overturned. Thats what I mean by not being able to undo history.

49 posted on 10/01/2009 4:10:48 PM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: LearsFool
It'll be an assault on many fronts, and some states may need to shift ground in order to exploit weak spots.

Just as they have been doing to us for decades. I've said it numerous times before but I believe it to be absolutely true: The mindsets of conservatives and libtards is so different we might as well be from different planets. Libtards are incessant busybodies who feel compelled to run other people's lives; conservtives just want to be left alone to go about their lives. One mindset is much more conducive to meddling than the other and therefore are the ones always on the attack in their insatiable desire to run things. Conservatives ALWAYS play defense against these simple minded morons. They are, for lack of a better term, control freaks. A form of mental illness is it not? ;^)

50 posted on 10/01/2009 4:24:59 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: TChris

Good points all. You haven’t read through the thread have you? ;^)


51 posted on 10/01/2009 4:25:57 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: Bokababe

Don’t get me wrong, Brogdon is a definite keeper, it’s just that I recall there being another player who might be just as good, or almost as good. Maybe I’ll do some research to see what’s cookin’ in OK.


52 posted on 10/01/2009 4:28:29 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: Huck
Two big mistakes they made, besides the various clauses that serve as gaping loopholes (necessary n proper, general welfare etc) were not designing into the document how constitutional questions would be resolved, and not providing a means for secession.

You're apparently referring to the "supremacy" and "commerce" clauses. Neither of which on its face necessarily gives the federales any additional powers outside of those listed in article 1, sec 8. They have been "interpreted" and stretched all out of proportion to something I submit our Founders would not recognize or condone for the most part.

For better or for worse the Constitution is clear that the SCOTUS is the final arbiter of things Constitutional. An agent of the feral government deciding issues between the feral government and the States could conceivably be construed as a conflict of interests, but that IS the plan. Secession like most things in life comes down to a power play, or more simply, are you big enough to get away with it. The feral government has been employing this tactic since the beginning.

53 posted on 10/01/2009 6:06:41 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake
I submit our Founders would not recognize or condone for the most part.

The warnings were made at the time. It's not as if no one brought it up. These superfluous clauses shouldn't have been in there. The whole idea was to keep the national gubmint in a box, right? Well, the results are in---EPIC FAIL.

54 posted on 10/01/2009 6:20:55 PM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: ForGod'sSake
Good points all. You haven’t read through the thread have you? ;^)

Guilty as charged.

Drive-by scanning.

55 posted on 10/01/2009 6:38:31 PM PDT by TChris (There is no freedom without the possibility of failure.)
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To: ForGod'sSake

The money flows both ways. States’ citizens send the biggest share of income tax to DC, DC takes their 70% overhead and returns about 30% maximum to red states and 40% to Blue states. Do the math, because in the long run, certainly the red states would be far better off just keeping the money within their borders. Something has to break because the bast***s in DC are not listening.


56 posted on 10/01/2009 6:44:19 PM PDT by Neoliberalnot ((Freedom's Precious Metals: Gold, Silver and Lead))
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To: Huck
These superfluous clauses shouldn't have been in there.

Nonsense. They actually serve a useful purpose as long as the feral government stayed within the constraints of their unumerated powers; they didn't. That is NOT the fault of the feral government who does what governments do, consolidate power; it's the fault of the American people for allowing them to get away with it for so long.

The whole idea was to keep the national gubmint in a box, right? Well, the results are in---EPIC FAIL.

FWIW, a piece of paper alone will NOT constrain a government. It does however give the makers of and parties in the contract the ability to call them to task should the need arise. The fact we're past the point where we should have reined in the federales, doesn't change the fact it is still our duty as citizens to pull them up short, or if necessary rout the bastards!

57 posted on 10/01/2009 6:48:53 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: TChris
Drive-by scanning.

Heh, I've never been guilty of that myself of course. You DO believe me; don't you???

58 posted on 10/01/2009 6:51:34 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: Neoliberalnot
Something has to break because the bast***s in DC are not listening.

Just so, and that's why I contend the states, acting on our behalf, are a better and stronger source of resistance. IF we can get many of them to join the fray against our bloated feral leviathan.

59 posted on 10/01/2009 6:56:02 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have two choices and two choices only: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake
Well, I do agree that the PEOPLE are the weakest link in the whole operation. No argument there. But that doesn't change anything. The US Constitution was an experiment, yes? And we now have a couple of centuries worth of data to judge the results. It's clear to anyone willing to look at it honestly that it's a failure. A big, fat, failure.

You can't just say it's the people's fault and act as if that somehow negates the errors of the framers. They knew that people were involved. They knew what they were attempting involved great risk. They created the federal gubmint where there was none. They weren't even tasked to do it, but they did it. So now it's been long enough to judge the results.

The failures unravelled over time. I think perhaps the most significant was the expansion of territory over time. The framers feared the original 13 were too big for a republic. WHat would they think of our size now? I think it's very likely that we're simply too big to function as a republic.

The failure to address secession--what if someone wants to leave the union--led to a whole lot of the mischief that got us where we are today. They simply didn't have the stomach to bring up the subject. But they should have.

They left the supreme court with too much power,and no real check on its power. That's pretty obvious. It doesn't even matter what you do with the judges. Once the decisions are made, they become precedent, and are difficult to do away with.

The interstate commerce clause is far too broad, obviously. Ironically,it was the skeptical anti-feds--George Mason, Patrick Henry--who wanted that clause in there. Big mistake. They needed to define clearly what they meant, and put clear limits on its interpretation. They didn't, and that has been one of the biggest loopholes for the feds to use.

Even the bill of rights has some major flaws. That clause at the beginning of the 2nd amendment has created decades of controversy. Hell, the phrase "establishment of religion" in the first amendment has been quite troublesome.

All of this is 20/20 hindsight of course, but that's the point of doing an experiment, isn't it? You do the experiment, you wait for the results, and then you draw conclusions.

It's not enough to blame lawyers for doing mischief. They had lawyers back then. They knew what they were dealing with. The 9th and 10th amendments turned out to be totally worthless.

And so, here we are. Were we to craft a new Constitution, I sure hope it would correct some of these known errors. The idea is to try to create a gubmint that preserves liberty, property. We have failed. All the fighting now is around the margins.

60 posted on 10/02/2009 5:58:58 AM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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