'Monogamous' Gays Can Serve in ELCA (Largest Lutheran Denomination Split on Divisive Issue)

Washington Post ^ | 8/21/2009 | jacqueline Salmon

[SeekAndFind]

Leaders of the nation's biggest Lutheran denomination voted Friday to allow gays in committed relationships to serve as clergy in the church -- making it one of the largest Christian denominations in the country to significantly open the pulpit to gays.

Previously, only celibate gays were permitted to serve as clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a denomination of 4.8 million members. But delegates to a church assembly voted 559-451 to allow gays in "life-long, monogamous" relationships to serve as clergy and professional lay leaders in the church.

The vote is the culmination of a years-long process in the ELCA, and was accompanied by plenty of emotion at the convention in Minneapolis. After standing in long lines to reach microphones during debates that extended all day, some delegates shook and others cried as they expressed their opposition or support of the measure.

Quoting the Bible and denomination founder Martin Luther, delegates sought to place the decision within their interpretation of their Lutheran faith.

"We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus' time and culture," Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. "We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood."

But other said the recommendations weaken the Biblical standards of the church.

"As Luther taught us, Scripture does not have a wax nose," said the Rev. Ryan Mills, a delegate representing Texas and Louisana. "It cannot be twisted into anything we want it to say. But that's just what we're doing with these following recommendations."

Conservatives tried to derail the vote, losing a ballot that would have required a supermajority of two-thirds to approve the proposal. They lost a similar vote earlier in the week.

[SeekAndFind]

Chapter 7 just details the struggle of a man who has been awakened to his sinful state, basically a state of Repentence where he realizes that without the help of a benevolent God, he is doomed.

And you believe that there are Pastors today who serve in our churches who do not have these struggles ?

[SoConPubbie]

And you believe that there are Pastors today who serve in our churches who do not have these struggles ?

Quite the opposite, to the shame of Christianity.

Given the sad state of Christian Churches today, this seems to be the rule instead of the exception.

Few there be that preach a Gospel of forgiveness AND Freedom from Sin.

It is the Freedom from Sin, however, that is the real Power of the Gospel, because otherwise, we are still in the Old-Testament dispensation where people would continually sin, but go to the Priest to confess their sins, over and over again.

If there is no Freedom from Sin, why would Jesus have come to go to Calvary, it would have been a symbolic gesture at best of no real value.

[SeekAndFind]

If there is no Freedom from Sin, why would Jesus have come to go to Calvary, it would have been a symbolic gesture at best of no real value.

We will not have PERFECT freedom from sin until we cross the great divide. That is the reality. Until then, sin will strike ANYONE, anytime at any moment.

Therefore, I humbly submit that we not ostracize a person from being a clergy when we know of no outward sexual sin he has committed. We can only know what is in his heart when he OUTWARDLY commits something wrong. Other than that, we can do nothing but trust him ( and verify if needed ).

[SoConPubbie]

We will not have PERFECT freedom from sin until we cross the great divide. That is the reality. Until then, sin will strike ANYONE, anytime at any moment.

You are living below the privileges that Christ died to give you, my friend.

Sin only has power over those who refuse to submit their wills to God and refuse to believe in the power and the truth of the Gospel.

There is a higher plain available to you my friend and Jesus stands willing and ready to lift you up to that plain.

Furthermore, why would Jesus command us "To be Holy as I am Holy" if he had not provided a manner in which to attain this state?

God is a loving, compassionate and faithful God. He does not command us to do things that with his help we are unable to do.

[SoConPubbie]

Therefore, I humbly submit that we not ostracize a person from being a clergy when we know of no outward sexual sin he has committed. We can only know what is in his heart when he OUTWARDLY commits something wrong. Other than that, we can do nothing but trust him ( and verify if needed ).

My friend, you still are not getting it. We are not talking about saved and up-to-date people in this scenario, we are talking about people who still consider themselves homosexuals, abstinate or not, they consider themselves homosexuals.

A condition defined by desire that God calls an abomination and sin.

Therefore, they are not saved, and they are not fit for leadership positions in the church.

I've exhausted this issue, and it appears that you are stubbornly going to hold to a position that is not scriptural and does not please God.

May God have mercy on you and provide you with the insight you seem to be sorely lacking on this point.

Take care Brother.

May God bless you with enlightenment on this issue.

[SeekAndFind]

Jesus command us "To be Holy as I am Holy" if he had not provided a manner in which to attain this state?

You already admit that a great number of pastors are shaming Christianity because they have not attained this state.

I know of many pastors, priests, deacons and elders who tell me what their personal weaknesses are. Many struggle with it and pray about it. However, I am thankful that those I know do not ACT or COMMIT sin outwardly. Therefore, I do not conclude that even when I know that they have these struggles, they are therefore unqualified to serve ( you seem to be telling me that they should be disqualified on that basis).

Are you telling me that there is no huge difference between thinking about something and actually DOING IT ? That a person should be disqualified from a position of Christian leadership simply because he is struggling with something in his heart even when he is really praying for strength to overcome it?

[SoConPubbie]

How do you interprete that ? Does this mean they don't sin any longer ? Does this mean that their state is perfect and they do not sin in their hearts at all ?

I missed this post of yours and I believe deserves an answer:

It means that they now have a choice, to either cling to Jesus in continual faith and live above sin, or give up that faith, for whatever reason that may be, and sin.

That is the Power that Christ died to give sinners such as you and I.

A Power over sin.

For proof of that, all you need to do is review the scriptures I posted from Romans 7 and 8. Furthermore, read through 1 John chapter 1.

[SeekAndFind]

A condition defined by desire that God calls an abomination and sin.

You seem to be focus on one form of sin and ignoring OTHER forms of sins that are just as abominable to God. Love of money, pride, jealousy, self-rigtheousness etc.

Again, let me re-iterate, I agree with scripture that homosexuality is an abomination. But hey, what about other sins ? It seems to me that for you, when one struggles with homosexual urges ( but asks God to help him control it and overcome it ), it is NOT OK, but on the other hand, when a person struggles with other forms, we can conveniently overlook them.

it appears that you are stubbornly going to hold to a position that is not scriptural and does not please God.

I am holding to a position that I don't think is unscriptural and I don't think you have adequately answered it at all. I am not even certain that your overlooking other forms of sins to focus on homosexuality is itself pleasing to God.

May God have mercy on you and provide you with the insight you seem to be sorely lacking on this point.

You wish for me, I return to you as well.

[Kells]

“allow gays in “life-long, monogamous” relationships”

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors butt buddy.

[SoConPubbie]

Are you telling me that there is no huge difference between thinking about something and actually DOING IT ? That a person should be disqualified from a position of Christian leadership simply because he is struggling with something in his heart even when he is really praying for strength to overcome it?

SAF,

Yes, I am, for as Jesus stated in the Beatitudes:

Mathew 5:21-28

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin originates in the Heart, or the thinking the sin as you stated, it is not just the outward action that Jesus calls sin.

And rather than praying for the strength to overcome the sin, Jesus died to Free them from that sin so that there is no more struggle, temptation yes, but no more struggle.

[SeekAndFind]

And rather than praying for the strength to overcome the sin, Jesus died to Free them from that sin so that there is no more struggle, temptation yes, but no more struggle.

So, you don't in anymore ?

[SeekAndFind]

And rather than praying for the strength to overcome the sin, Jesus died to Free them from that sin so that there is no more struggle, temptation yes, but no more struggle.

So since Jesus has freed you from sin, you don't sin anymore today and will never sin in the future ? Is that a guarantee ?

[SeekAndFind]

And rather than praying for the strength to overcome the sin, Jesus died to Free them from that sin so that there is no more struggle, temptation yes, but no more struggle.

So since Jesus has freed you from sin, you don't sin anymore today and will never sin in the future ? Is that a guarantee ?

[SoConPubbie]

You seem to be focus on one form of sin and ignoring OTHER forms of sins that are just as abominable to God. Love of money, pride, jealousy, self-rigtheousness etc.

No, I am not.

But this article is about Homosexuals, isn't it?

The same principles apply by simply replacing the word Homosexual with Adulterer, Liar, Murderer.

What makes the Homosexual condition stand out from other sins, is that it binds all the other sins onto that individual. For as Paul states in Romans 1:


24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[SoConPubbie]

So since Jesus has freed you from sin, you don't sin anymore today and will never sin in the future ? Is that a guarantee ?

Only if I choose to continually rely on Jesus and his sacrifice for the power to live above my sinful nature.

If I choose otherwise, either to directly sin or attempt to do live above sin in my own power, I will fail.

Jesus died to give me, and you, that choice.

Otherwise, his sacrifice was in vain.

[Old Landmarks]

Would you say that a person whose heart and mindset is either actively or passively in support of homosexuality is in need of repentance?

Do you think it is tolerable for any Christian to be actively or passively in support of the homosexual lifestyle or the homosexual movement?

In this day of the promotion of sexual perversion, should a Christian be actively opposed to the the modern movement to promote the sin of homosexuality?

Is the abomination of homosexuality something that should be kept on the back burner in someone's heart or should it be completely forsaken and opposed as a gross and disgusting abomination?

[MHGinTN]

Your badgering, incessant drone, and the choice of threads you start say a lot about your obsessions. Since you don’t comprehend Salvation, what is your obsession with fronting for the sexual degeneracy squad? Are you seeking to justify degeneracy by default? Or are you just serving your father?

[SeekAndFind]

If I choose otherwise, either to directly sin or attempt to do live above sin in my own power, I will fail.

You have done a very good job of not answering my question. I asked you a simple question --- DO YOU GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL NOT SIN EVER ?

Since you are freed from sin as you said, your answer has to be YES.

[SeekAndFind]

Your badgering, incessant drone, and the choice of threads you start say a lot about your obsessions.

My obsession is CLEAR THINKING. I don't think there is anything unchristian about that.

Since you don’t comprehend Salvation,

How do you know that I don't ? I am asking questions in order to find out if your understanding of it is correct.

what is your obsession with fronting for the sexual degeneracy squad?

See ? Your using of the word --- fronting -- simply shows you are not interested in answering my questions. You are only interested in attacking the one asking the question.

Please re-read my posts above and tell me where I even so much as said that it is OK to commit homosexual acts. I challenge you.

Are you seeking to justify degeneracy by default?

No, I am seeking to determine what the most realistic policy is for a church to have when they ordain a minister.

Or are you just serving your father?

Be careful with that question as it might backfire.

[Mom MD]

So let me get this straight - he doesn’t think Jesus understands homosexuality?