Posted on 06/06/2009 6:24:20 AM PDT by Zakeet
I'm wary of drawing too many lessons from anonymous message board comments. One could certainly pluck comments from Beliefnet's boards to prove that we harbor either right wing or left wing extremists.
But it's worth perusing the message boards of FreeRepublic, a conservative community, to gauge the general mood of the most hardcore conservatives.
First, quite a few people are saying that murder is wrong, no matter how evil the victim was.
SnakeDoc:
Thou Shalt Not Murder. Both the shooter and the victim will be judged.Patriot preacher:
Pro-lifers should condemn this as antithetical to their philosophy and beliefs. Hopefully, the perpetrator will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I will shed no tears that Teller is gone -- but MURDER is MURDER.
Then a large group is making a more practical argument that this was bad because it will backfire. In fact, a startling large number believe Tiller was murdered by Obama or pro-choice allies in order to justify a crackdown on guns or civil liberties:
upchuck:
This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist,every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.gridlock:
Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society. I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...jazminerose:
Will form the rationalization for really stomping on pro life groups. Was it one of BO's storm troopers who pulled the trigger?
Then there's a large number of people who flat-out applaud the killing. I'm going to print a lot of them because it's really unfair to pluck a few extreme quotes off any websites message boards. What's amazing is the sheer volulme of people thinking this way:
imahawk:
One less nazi as far as I am concerned.Turret Gunner A20:
Hope the guy gets away....Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.calico_thompson:
Well, at least the perp didn't rip his arms and legs off and then suck his brains out.Gaffer:
No doubt this 'man' is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his 'passing' is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don't know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.TheDuke:
But, wasn't this just another late term abortion(?)Slump Tester:
It's too bad the suspect didn't poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.SampleMan:
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer. In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery. Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.babygene:
killing to prevent a serial killer from claiming his next victim probably doesn't fit into the category of murder...Cheetahcat:
Nothing to see here just his last abortion this one many trimesters Post Birth.Ahithophel:
He will till no more in the bloody garden of evisceration.UnwashedPeasant:
What kind of "church" was this? The Wright kind?steve86:
I guess the allies should not have killed a single Nazi soldier in WWII?eccentric:
It is not murder to kill someone to save someone else's life.353FMG:
The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.mrsmel:
It's too bad, when murderers on the left who really did target innocent people are rewarded and lauded. This man Tiller was responsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent babies, and we are supposed to be shame-faced that someone stopped him in his tracks from jabbing scissors into yet another babies' head and sucking their life out.
and from another thread:
Canedawg:
i wouldnt feel too badly if some of the communists in our govt met a similar fate. That doesnt mean i am about to go around killing anyone, but if someone else does the deed, i wont be crying over the tainted blood of treasonous actors and infanticiders.Glenn:
How about rejoicing for all the children this "Doctor" will not murder now?Flintlock:
I tried to get upset about this.
I failed.
My bad, I guess.stockpirate:
God BLESS the man that killed Tiller.
It is time the left started to feel the wrath of conservatives.
There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword. Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not.
A people unwilling to use extreme violence to preserve their liberty deserve the tyrants that rule them. The two phrases are written over the doors of the Justice Department in DC, "Repression breeds violence" and "Where justice ends, tyranny begins"
Certainly the unborn are suffering under the boot of tyranny and are being repressed by the ungodly.
Rightous men have an obligation to change the wanton murder of the unborn.
A nation that allows the murder of the unborn deserves God's harsh judgement.
and this thread:
Lexington Green:
What goes around...newfreep:
Whatever "church" Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.IDRATHERNOT:
Tiller Shot & Killed? Thousands of unborn children claim self defense.wardaddy:
he reaped what he's sowed same as anyone so evilSloth:
*shrug* Genocide has consequences.The Sons of Liberty:
Shooting was too good for him. Too bad his body wasn't torn to pieces like his victims.
May he burn in hell for eternity.wardaddy:
This guy wa a monster period.
Did you cry when Dahmer got killed in the joint?
Would you worry about Manson?
nothing personal but ya'll are soft as butter.
I make no apologies whatsoever, folks here will be ill prepared for where we're headed.whatisthetruth:
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner, couldn't have happened to a better man, IMO.P-Marlowe:
If you TRULY believe that Abortion is murder, then you cannot condemn anyone who would do anything to stop this mass murderer from continuing in his crimes. This is where the rubber meets the road. If you call abortion murder, then this was justifiable homicide. If abortion is not murder, then Tiller was the victim of a heinous crime and his killer should be condemned.mjp:
Sometimes retaliatory force is necessary to stop initiation of force by those who are violating natural rights. Preservation of life and natural rights of the innocent is a natural duty that God requires.tips up:
If the killer just put scissors into his skull, it would be considered a late term abortion (60+ years late) and he would be a hero of the left, rather than a domestic terrorist.gscc:
I suppose if Hitler had been assassinated there would have been many "good" Germans who would have looked at the assassin as a "crazy". Let's face it - this country has lost it's soul. We live in a post-Judeo-Christian nation and it will only go down hill from here. There will certainly be many "good" Americans that lament the passing of this evil man. With a federal government, press and apostate "church" firmly entrenched in liberal secular theology we are witnessing the end of the founder's America.MichiganConservative:
It's abortion in the 272nd tri-mester (ROTFLMAO)
Post-extraction lead-induced termination.
“some of the rottenest people in the game think they are pure”
I agree with you there.
Am I wrong in how I feel? If I am, tell me. I think murder is wrong regardless of who is doing it. If I shoot an abortion doctor, am I not as bad as he is? Will I not be held accountable? For the life of me, I cannot see how anyone who is Pro-Life can celebrate the death of anyone.
It looks like your main objection is that you believe that the comments here are politically inexpedient, which is a matter of political judgment. History teaches that wherever it is practiced, murder makes a government popular with its people, unless there are moral objections. This is because governments that murder are perceived as powerful, and, as Henry Kissinger has noted, 'Power is the greatest aphrodisiac'. In America today, among the governing class and its supporters, morality is simply not a motivating force. They are drawn to death as they are drawn to Obama, for the same reason. This is only one of the reason that the people of this country have become so contemptible. To appeal to a contemptible people, sometimes you must use contemptible means.
Good post! I agree with you and IMHO many posts on the subject were self-serving and did nothing to move the real ball forward; to make matters worst only a day or two later there was another post about the man who used Craigslist to hire someone to rape his wife in front of him and while his children were home.. to which a FReeper kept posting over and over again it was no different than abortion and thus she deserved what she got == even though what happened to her had nothing to do with abortion..... it is as if the inmates are currently running the asylum and because FR is widely touted as a conservative site it paints all of us with a brush many of us would prefer not to be painted with and it does chase off the people we need to attract at a very critical time in our countries history.
It's John Donne and not Scripture which says that when a man dies the bell tolls for all of us. When an unrepentant murderer leaves this earth it can only mean the world is getting better and God's judgment is being met.
But I still would not call for any individual to murder even a murderer. Two wrongs don't make a right. And if Roeder doesn't repent, he, too, is in jeopardy of joining Tiller in hell for eternity.
And we cannot lose sight of the fact we may be getting played in this entire event. It wouldn't be the first time.
If George Tiller hadn't been in the business of killing babies we might all be up in arms at his being shot in church.
I'm sorry, but folks who engage in certain disreputable businesses simply lose our sympathy ~ it's human nature ~ and we'll probably all go to Hell for it, but I'm pretty sure my stay would be much shorter than George's.
It is not murder to kill someone certain to kill someone else. It is some other level of homicide.
It's very PC for me to say, "Ain't it awful that the Murderer was Murdered.", but the truth is that life and death are in the hands of God. If God wanted Tiller here, he'd still be here. His time was approved.
God's instrumentalities date back to the decrees to create, and in my understanding, those decrees occurred AFTER "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." In other words, the slain Lamb predated the foundation.
I can't wait to see how this one turns out.
Following the moral precepts of Leftwingtards, I believe the correct position is: If you don't believe in shooting abortionists, then don't shoot one.
It's a bit of a false choice. Obviously what Tiller did was murder babies, that should be obvious to anyone from the pictures. The people who deny that it is murder have lost some critical empathy. Pointing out those obvious murders should not be the same as inciting Roeder to commit murder himself. That was Roeder's choice and Roeder's alone.
I just realized I’ve been sitting here for hours on this one thread. New record for me. Good Lord I need a drink followed by a long nap.
I think that is probably a misuse of the fact that God ordinates all things. Just because God ordains all things does not mean that murder is lawful.
The redeemed will know murder is sin and repent of it, whereas the condemned will not. That's the difference between Tiller and you.
Then don't call abortion "murder."
That's simple enough, isn't it?
If you call it "murder" then taking the life of an abortionst in order to prevent him from murdering other people is justified. Period.
There is not doubt in my mind that if George Tiller had lived another week, another 100 babies would have been murdered in his clinic.
If I didn't think it was murder, I would not be praying for the acquittal of Roeder, I would be calling for his execution.
Would you rather see Roeder tried and acquitted of murder by a jury of his peers, or would you rather he be found guilty of murder and executed like so many of Tiller's patients?
For PR purposes I suppose most "pro-life" advocates would rather Roeder be executed than set free. Does that mean they are "pro-life" because they weep at the death of Tiller, yet they will join in cheers with the NARAL crowd when the needle goes into Roeder's vein?
Dr. E, NOBODY on this forum EVER advocated for Tiller to be gunned down. But now that he has been gunned down, we have to deal with the consequences of the act. What are the consequences? Well to start with there have been no late term abortions in the State of Kansas since 5/31/09.
I suspect it was God's sovereign will that there would be no late term abortions this last 7 days. I suspect that while God does not take pleasure at the death of the wicked, the heavens have rejoiced at the lives that have been spared since Roeder took the law into his own hands.
I cannot condemn Roeder for what he did because I have many times called Abortion "murder" and in that sense I have many times fueled the very fire that burned within him. I would have preferred that God had taken him out with a bolt of lightning or with fire from heaven, but he didn't.
While I too take no pleasure in the death of Tiller, I cannot say that I have for even one second contemplated that idea that I am sorry that he is dead. I could no more weep for Tiller than I could weep for the Nazi guards at Buchenwald or Dachau. And less human beings were slaughtered at either of those facilities than were slaughtered at the Tiller clinic in Wichita.
I pray that someday there will be a memorial to the 60,000 innocent lives that were butchered on the spot where that horrid "clinic" now stands. Likewise I hope that there may also be a plaque at the "Church" where Tiller met his maker commemorating the end of a violent holocaust.
But I am not optimistic. The pro-life movement, such as it is, is apparently calling for Roeder's blood while at the same time crying crocodile tears over the greatest serial murderer this planet has ever seen. Where is their call for mercy and forgiveness of Roeder's actions? That would be politically incorrect. The politically correct position is that Roeder can't be executed fast enough and the call from the Abortions Rights people and the Right to Life people sounds eerily idential. Politics makes for strange bedfellows.
Whether you want to admit it or not, everytime you cry out "ABORTION IS MURDER" you fuel the fire inside a potential Roeder. Yes Roeder acted alone, but he also acted as if he were listening the cries of those who called out "ABORTION IS MURDER" as a justification in his own mind for the deed he did.
The choice is clear. If you want to wash your hands of the next violent act against an abortionist, then stop screaming such phrases as "ABORTION IS MURDER." Call it something else. Call it a "BAD CHOICE" or something more innocuous.
But if you cry out that it is murder, do not pretend you are not in any way responsible for the consequences that will flow from those words when someone takes you seriously and acts accordingly.
First, we don't know that Roeder didn't/wont repent, although I'm not sure of the charge to which he'd confess.
Second, repentance or not Tiller's outta here, and that means his time was up.
And just because an abortionist was shot, does not mean it was "murder".
What happened to the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd?
Absolutely awesome point, P-M! Why are pro-life organizations, spokespersons, and commentators NOT calling for forgiveness and mercy for Roeder?
Have they forgotten who they are and what they've advocated. From pro-life groups to O'Reilly they ALL have called abortion MURDER. Now their words have come home to roost, and they're the ones lining up asking for a Roeder Roast.
Hypocrites are those who are unwilling to face the predictable consequences of their own actions. Given their OWN ACTIONS, their words about murder of in utero babies, they should be asking for mercy/forgiveness for Roeder, who they led astray, or who they admit is a casualty of a verbal war.
I didn’t and won’t swear at you. I used the word damn in the context of “all”, not you.
Don’t be such a wimp....
A trial lawyer representing Roeder or his family could probably, in this environment, win a judgment against some of these like O'Reilly or Pro-Life This-That-Or-The-Other.
Is it possible to charge someone with inciting to murder?
Your review of the posts has demonstrated something I’ve feared for some time now. Many of those claiming to be “Conservatives” have really become “Reactionaries.” They might believe in Conservative principles, but it is their anger that now drives them, not their principles, or their responsible actions in implementing those principles. It’s just, “kill the other guy...glad he’s dead...Who cares about consequences...”
I would hasten to add that this is true of many of those on the Left as well. they have become reactionaries AGAINST anything “Conservative” and are driven by that hatred. By nature, I believe the Left is more apt to violent acts, riots, uprisings, etc., but the pathology is the same.
The nation is endangered when one extreme becomes the sole heir of power — in our case, that is the Left. Constitutional Conservatives have not had any real power in Washington in decades, perhaps not since at least the early 1900’s. Even winning elections has not wrested the Federal Government from their grasp. Slowed them, maybe. Hampered them at times, sure. Stopped them? No. It has only angered their extremist elements all the more.
When the People sense, over a long period, that those running the affairs of state are not listening, or worse — are thumbing their noses at the People, and when they sense NO ONE is standing up for them, either on the Federal, State or Local levels — this is the kind of anger that develops. This is the underlying cause of the anger on the Right.
And we are approaching a time when that anger cannot be defused. There have been several opportunities, but the last insults are being hurled now. the final slaps in the face are being taken by a people who’ve had enough. At this stage, most people no longer care about their principles — only about lashing out, hitting back, seeking vengeance.
One day soon, something will be the trigger. It could be as mundane as a weapons confiscation law, or increased taxes. It could be as horrible a terrorist WMD attack. But there will be a trigger — and the People will start hunting for those that brought the pain, those that protected them — or those they just hate.
It will not be pretty. It will not be neat. And it will NOT be another “American Revolution,” not if things proceed as they are going now. It will be more like a French Revolution. Random. Bloody. Irrational. Anarchy.
The thirst for blood is already evident here on FR’s threads — and has been for some time on Leftists forums and blogs. Ladies and Gentlemen, this will not end well. Change directions NOW through peaceful but firm means, or the consequences may just cost each of you MORE than you ever bargained for.
JDW
Patriot Preacher
My point was that I take great "pleasure" in the fact Tiller is no longer breathing, but I disagree with the manner which accomplished that fact.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.