Posted on 06/01/2009 1:06:11 PM PDT by wagglebee
Upon learning of the tragic murder of abortionist George Tiller, about whom I have written on numerous occasions, our staff realized that I was 34,000 feet in the air. As I would have hoped, American Life League’s Executive Director, Shaun Kenney, who was on the ground, issued the following public statement on behalf of American Life League:
Leaders within the pro-life movement often discuss justice in connection with our mission to end the tragedy of abortion. Today, Dr. George Tiller's life ended in an act defying those principles.
With genuine sorrow, we reflect on today's events in prayer. Justice for all human beings includes the lives of those with whom we fundamentally disagree as well as the victims of abortion. We firmly hope the perpetrators of this act are apprehended, that the facts be made known, and that justice according to the law is preserved and dispensed.
Today's actions were tragic, and serve as another reminder that all human life is sacred. Pro-lifers by our nature and commitment to human rights reject violence as a means of resistance. Our thoughts and prayers indeed extend to the Tiller family and the community at Reformation Lutheran Church.
It is with unrestrained dedication to the principle that each human being is loved by God and is indeed His creation that our hearts go out to the Tiller family, including his surviving wife who is the mother of his four children. A senseless act of violence should never be answered with any words other than those extended with the love of Christ. For those reasons, I am personally proud of our executive director, and pray that others who have said less prudent things will take note of what it truly means to be pro-life in America.
It is not so with all of those who have made various statements regarding this senseless loss of life. Many have lost sight of the ravages that have been wrought by the culture of death and the strangle hold it has placed on our national psyche.
For example, when I listened to the words of President Barack Obama, my heart was struck with the tragic disconnect too many Americans have accepted when it comes to such tragedies in our culture. Apparently, they honestly see a difference between killing before, versus killing after, birth. The president said:
I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning. However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence.
The president’s sentiments as expressed in this statement represent a serious disassociation between the tragic death of one man in Kansas and the equally tragic deaths of thousands of preborn children that occur on a daily basis throughout this nation. Every act of senseless killing is an outrage and should cause shock in the heart of every one of us. But this is not what I gleaned from the president’s words.
It is, in fact, so very sad that the president can treat of one type of heinous crime as an “issue” while describing an equally wicked crime in the proper terms. Such contradictory language is typical of the attitude of far too many in our nation who, after more than 36 years of decriminalized killing, have come to view the born as a completely different class of people than the preborn. Too many in America have become desensitized to what abortion does to not-yet born human beings. But at the same time, they are saddened, as they should be, by what equally horrific acts do to born persons.
Perhaps this is the perfect occasion for each of us to reexamine the culture in which we live: the attitudes we have adopted, and the opinions we have formed. Such an exercise would help us sort out this dichotomy in our language, our attitudes and our behavior.
When Pope John Paul II wrote of violence against the human person in his profound encyclical, Evangelium Vitae, he encapsulated many of the most fundamental principles that pertain to the life of every human being at every stage of his or her life:
Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves 'the creative action of God', and it remains forever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can, in any circumstance, claim for himself the right to destroy directly an innocent human being….God proclaims that He is absolute Lord of the life of man, who is formed in His image and likeness (cf. Gen 1:26-28). Human life is thus given a sacred and inviolable character, which reflects the inviolability of the Creator Himself.
The truth is that every human being’s life is sacred; every human being’s life is a gift from God; every human being belongs to God, Who is the reason that each person exists.
It is our prayer that men and women of good will can take time to reflect with honesty on the sad events that occurred Sunday in Wichita, and realize that there is not a single human being’s life that is ever disposable, whether born or preborn. Judgments in matters of life and death belong to God alone.
Today we invite our fellow Americans to come together in prayer for the Tiller family, in mourning for senseless acts of violence that occur not only through abominable acts of abortion, but through hateful words, detestable acts against the unsuspecting and dreadful acts of dehumanization against our fellow human beings.
May the peace of Christ be with the Tiller family during this time of extreme sorrow.
My son was born prematurely at 31 weeks and spent 40 days in the hospital.
Abortion is so sick and those who support it, even sicker.
So what do you do when a person commits murder over and over and is protected by corrupt politicians? What does your God command you to do?
You wrote: “As I told another person, it would have been helpful if you read my original post.”
I read your all your posts on this thread.
You wrote: “It is my belief that acts of violence in a church are wrong.”
Why any more wrong there than anywhere else? And since you are speaking of church, would you care to support your position scripturally? Jesus’ most “violent” act during His sojourn on earth took place in the temple.
You wrote: “I believe in capital punishment. But not vigilantism.”
When the law says it is OK to murder babies, should baby killers be suffered to operate with impunity and absent any fear of retribution, save directly from God? If your answer is yes, what about when the law says it is ok to kill Jews, to kill the deformed, to kill the elderly, or to kill you? WHEN and WHERE will YOU draw the line (if anywhere) for “vigilantism,” self-defense, or the defense of the innocent in the face of unjust laws?
You wrote: “What do you think should happen to Tiller’s murderer?”
He should be incarcerated and prosecuted, and tried before a jury of his peers. If found innocent, he should walk out a free man, if not, he should pay his debt to society, while he awaits his ultimate judgment (and reward or condemnation) before the seat of Him who judges justly.
I’ll address everything you’ve posited.
I’m glad you read the other posts. Now, based on that, what did I state is my stance on abortion? Am I your foe or a fellow pro-life. Additionally, did I not make certain advisements at the end of my post? I did that because I know of the disrespect that some seem compelled to show with those that they disagree. Some are very confrontational and nasty at times. I perfer civility befitting adults. It’s funny but there are those that may have a bit more knowledge of something that miss perfect opportunities to help others. Their egos get in the way.
Jesus did not throw the money changers out of the worship area or even the most sacred area of the temple. Money changers and animal sellers were the norm in the area of temples since the Jews were commanded to make animal sacrifices. Tiller’s murder was in the holiest part of the church.
I am tempted not to answer your questions about murder of innocent babies versus vigilantism because of the tone of your questioning. It is EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE! But I will try to control my offense. Of course, I DO NOT believe in killing Jews, the infirmed, the deformed, and the unborn. Vigilantism is taking the law into your own hands. But then you knew that. I know you were just “bating”. We can’t go around proclaiming that God told us to kill this person or that. As hard as it is, we live in a civilized society and therefore must operate within the laws. We have our vote and activism to change the laws. You will notice that ALL pro-life groups condemned the murder.
Well at least we can agree on the murderer’s fate.
Sorry if you were offended by sincere, honest debate on a discussion group. If you don’t like your ideas being challenged, perhaps you should keep them to yourself.
It is easy to talk about being pro-life, and hold that as a philosophical position.
When it comes to actually stopping evil in the world it often takes more than words or philosophies, and even more than voting and political activism.
There are times to beat your swords into plowshares...and times to beat your plowshares into swords, as history abundantly (and thankfully) illustrates.
God often chooses to solve evil in the world through violent activity, sometimes directly, as in Noah’s day and the Red Sea, and other times through His people as in the possession of Canaan. He has also ordained secular authorities (hopefully with Christian propensities, but often not) as in Romans 13. Early Christians obeyed their authorities as closely as they could and still be obedient to God (which means they often broke the law in order to obey and please God).
I didn’t ask you if you believed in killing various groups of people, I assumed you didn’t. What I did ask was at what point you would personally draw the line and disobey secular authority that was destroying innocent life or permitting its destruction. If you would like historical examples think of Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, etc. Should there have been any internal resistence to the genocidal policies of these governments...and would you assist or condemn those who resisted this government sponsored genocide? A current example is Sudan and the routine extermination of Christians in the southern part of the country.
To me, vigilantism, as a principle, is generally wrong. However, as a practical matter, depending on the nature and tone of the law(s) and how it is (they are) enforced, vigilantism can be morally correct, even if legally punishable.
The “law” was added to show sin for what it is (by God). If man’s laws do not reflect the laws of God, they can be, and often are, evil in themselves. Following, or hiding behind, unjust laws will be no excuse for disobeying God when Judgment Day comes.
As a point of correction, I understand Tiller was passing out bulletins and not in the sanctuary of his church, so I cannot make sense of your assertion that “Tiller’s murder was in the holiest part of the church.” I view each individual as either an actual or potential temple of the Holy Spirit, so I disagree with your emphasis there was something especially egregious about Tiller’s killer acting in a church foyer as compared with ANYWHERE else. Perhaps you can clarify your point by elaborating on where Tiller’s killing would have been more acceptable (or less heinous).
My dear friend, you are the one being offensive. You have told me to grow up, called me arrogant, insincere, and dishonest as well as falsely accusing me of “baiting” you.
Thank you for your service in the Army.
You refused to divulge where you think it would have been less offensive for Tiller’s killer to act, but I reiterate that I don’t find buildings sacred, but people...for they are made in the image of God.
Perhaps we can have this discussion again in 35 years when 50,000,000 more innocent children have been legally slaughtered in this “non-totalitarian” regime.
THE PROTESTOR
The protester stood alone
On ground she felt should somehow be her own
It strangely wasn’t.
The authorities stood by
Oblivious to her cry
As the attacker drew ever near
His crime of violence to do.
Where could she run and hide
She tries
But there is nowhere else to go
She must remain.
In dark the knife won’t flash
But cuts as sure
And spills innocent blood upon the floor.
But just to die is not enough
She must be taken, ripped apart, limb by limb
Oh the callousness of him
Who does the deed.
But now its done
The property is clear
The protester is gone
Dismembered in a dumpster lying near.
Over and over this drama plays on
More and more of the innocent are gone
Sliently swept away
50,000,000 souls who’ve never seen the light of day.
Can no one hear their cry
Can no one feel their pain
Each time we suck their life, or let some greedy soul
Each member of the crowd must pay the toll
Spectators of a deed we might not choose
But to be involved we can’t refuse.
Silently we say “Yes”, take her away
Or rightfully we say “No” this cannot be
What will you choose, for choose you must
Will another die, or from the knife go free?
Steve Weaver
PS - What kind of “church” would offer communion to a baby killer? This was a question asked by my non-Christian friend.
The difference between you and me is that I am not trying to be offensive. Sweet titles and platitudes do not impress me when they are offered in a passive aggressive manner. You refuse to even consider that you have offended me. What would you call that? Perhaps you do not realize the offense you have given.
I didn’t refuse to answer anything you have asked, whereas you dodged some of my questions. I told you that those that engage in henious acts like Tiller should be dealt with the courts and die by capital punishment. It seemed that you agreed to that, and then reverted to the “let’s kill ‘em wherever they are” stance.
I told you repeatedly that I am for the unborn. It was you who questioned my authenticity. If someone had done that to you, how would you react? I lament EVERY baby that is murdered.
As for the communion to the baby killer (I consider it murder) scenario. I don’t know. Perhaps one that was trying to change Tiller’s heart by using Jesus’ example of defending a adulterer/whore.
You can’t be Christian without acknowledging the sanctity of a church and its’ grounds. A church is where God dwells. Jesus showed that and said that. Better check out the New Testiment again.
Again, I ask you. What do you plan to do to stop the murder of the unborn? What have you done, Steve?
I had to break this into two posts to get it to format in sections...Post 1 follows:
I think you are offended by the mere fact that I don’t agree with the content of your posts and call them into question. Nowhere did I personally insult you as you have personally insulted me and falsely accused me.
Nowhere did I accuse you of not being pro-life. I did point out that people will likely engage in different levels of activity and have different beliefs regarding what is “acceptable” in their pro-life pursuits.
For example, I called into question your assertion that it was particularly heinous for Tiller’s killer to act at a church, and offered the biblical view that an intentional murderer is to be dragged away from God’s altar, by God’s command, for the purpose of execution (Exodus 21:14).
You offered no biblical refutation of that concept.
You just accused me of a, and I quote, ...“let’s kill ‘em wherever they are” stance.... I never said Tiller’s killer should not face our justice system. I merely pointed out the severely schizophrenic nature of “our” system that allows the killing of the innocent, while protecting “our” murderers. This system will not stand forever, as innocent blood cries out for justice. Whether a civil war will ensue in this land or not, I don’t know, but I can see our system can not long endure as it currently stands. In that context, I asked you where you would personally draw the line regarding legalized killing of people, eg. babies, Jews, the infirm or elderly, etc. The closest you came to answering that question was to say you served in the Army, which I consider a non-answer, as you never took up arms against your own government like the founding fathers against Britain, and perhaps the South (though they seceded and formed their own government).
While I agree with you that “those that engage in henious acts like Tiller should be dealt with (by) the courts and die by capital punishment” I think you meant to make that statement regarding the individual who put Tiller’s killing spree to an end. Tiller is estimated to have killed 60,000 babies. Perhaps you did mean he should die by capital punishment, and not his killer...please clarify.
Sorry you reacted to your own assumption that I thought you were against the unborn. Your condemnation of Tiller’s killer is on “safe ground” and closely resembles many of the pro-life organization condemnations of the individual. However, my suggestion that you should not post if you are so easily offended to those who disagree with your views, or segments of what you post, still stands. In responding to a perceived offense, you have committed an actual one, but no worries, my skin is thick.
Regarding offering communion, or even access to a Christian church to a man like Tiller, I think we have clear Christian instruction in 1 Corinthians 5 about who can and who cannot be accepted into Christian fellowship. Tiller, apparently, was not a visitor, but a regular member of this “church.
I had to break this into three (not two) posts to get it to format in sections...Post 2 follows:
I’m going to quote a whole segment of your last post: “You can’t be Christian without acknowledging the sanctity of a church and its’ grounds. A church is where God dwells. Jesus showed that and said that. Better check out the New Testiment again.”
Sorry, the New Testament teaches that the ecclesia, or “church,” is not a building, but a body of people — those who have come to faith in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. They can meet in houses, synagogues, catacombs, or the marketplace...it makes no difference.
To say you have to “acknowledge the sanctity of a church and its grounds” to be a Christian is sheer nonsense. Sorry if this offends you, but you can’t just arbitrarily add your own personal requirements for salvation, requirements which the New Testament makes very clear.
Post 3 follows:
If you would like to quote the New Testament rather than just telling me what you think it says, perhaps we can substantively discuss the issue. Refer to:
1 Corinthians 3:16&17
1 Corinthians 6:19
2 Corinthians 6:16
Ephesians 2:21.
Personally what do I do? I write poetry encouraging people to consider life “issues,” like the one in my last post. I volunteer and help raise funds for, as well as supporting, my local crisis pregnancy center (Alpha Pregnancy Center). I have served in the ministry over thirty years, teaching and preaching against abortion (not every sermon, nor in every classroom every time). I vote, and, unlike many Christians who apparently don’t hold biblical values close to their heart, vote only for pro-life candidates. And of course, I pray for the ending of abortion in our land and world.
I have not done nearly enough, and have not been nearly consistent enough, to bring an end to abortion. And I can see the day when the only alternative left for God is to execute justice on a stubborn, rebellious, murderous country which refuses to acknowledge the Christ who died for her and repent of her sins. Would you disagree with Lincoln’s stated view that the Civil War was a heaven-sent punishment for slavery? Brothers killing brothers? The approximately 600,000 casualties of the Civil War, by far America’s costliest in human life, is 1.2% of the death toll of the holocaust of abortion.
Since I am incapable of understanding you, in your view, it appears impossible for us to communicate. So I’ll stop trying.
In my world, however, for anyone else who might possibly read this post, I have no tears when someone who callously and wilfully kills 60,000 babies at $6,000 per murder, paid in advance, finds himself on the wrong end of the “murder” instrument. That doesn’t mean I am out rejoicing in the streets, but saddened that our society, culture, and justice departments would not stop a mass murderer because he had “legal” justification, and court authority to commit these murders.
The court murdered Terri Schiavo (and likely others who did not get the press coverage she did), and allows “shedding” of innocent blood to the tune of over a million dead babies a year. Unfortunately, Tiller’s killer will have to pay the price for doing the job he should never have not only felt compelled to do, but had the opportunity to do. In a just society, Tiller would have been prohibited from his taking advantage of people’s misery/self-centerdness, and aiding them in choosing death for someone else, or punished for doing so.
Anyone else, do you think Jesus would have welcomed an unrepentant Tiller to be a member of His church?
I was in a hurry last night and didn’t read your post #55 in which you accused me of hating our country and offering me a one-way ticket to leave if I promised to never return. I am afraid I will have to decline your “love” offering.
From Lincoln’s Second Inaugural address:
If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope—fervently do we pray—that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.”
It is amazing how you interpret my disagreement with you over whether or not it was particularly heinous for Tiller’s killer to take his life at a church as opposed to anywhere else into assertions that 1) I don’t believe you are pro-life, 2) I am arrogant, insincere, and dishonest, 3) that you respect me and have not falsely accused me, even as you call me a hater of our country and offer me a one-way ticket to leave, etcetera, etcetera...
If you interpret the Bible in the same way as you have our conversation(s), then I understand why you and I cannot agree on what it says.
Please keep up your good work on behalf of the unborn. God bless your efforts that bring honor to Him!
I told you that I knew you wouldn’t accept. I didn’t accuse you of anything. It was truthful that you hate this country. Your words demonstrate this.
Thanks for putting up the text of the speech. I’ll read it when I have time. However, I stand by my view.
I spoke with my roomate about our exchanges. She is a 57 year old born again Christian whose parents were Four Square ministers. She has studied the Bible all her life. According to her, you are wrong on 1) Tiller’s murder, and 2) that it happened in a church.
BTW, do you live in Kansas? Are you a member of Fred Phelps’ “church”?
I feel sorry for you.
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