Posted on 02/08/2009 3:10:04 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
The universe’s birth certificate
Once you let go of the Bible as history, all Christian doctrine begins to disintegrate. Dr Nigel Leaves, the Warden and Dean of Studies at John Wollaston Anglican Theological College in Perth (Australia), provides a typical example in The God Problem: Alternatives to Fundamentalism.1 He says ‘the major factor in the waning of the Christian faith is its continuing insistence on a supernatural God—the Almighty, the lawgiver and judge.’ He considers four alternatives to ‘fundamentalism’ (i.e. believing in the God of the Bible), saying, ‘Traditional beliefs about God cannot be sustained in the light of the latest scientific and critical thinking.’ And of course the ‘latest scientific thinking’ rests on the foundation of discounting the time scale of Genesis creation.
But the Bible gives us a measured time scale, an eye-witness record, of history, a foundation far more secure than any modern scientific estimate. A measurement wins over an estimate any day!
The earth’s ‘birth certificate’
My birth certificate gives me a measured time scale for my age. It is an eye-witnessed statement that I was born on 28 January 1946, and other eye-witnesses have maintained a record of the earth having circled the sun 61 times since then. Likewise, the Bible gives us a ‘birth certificate’ for the universe—an eye-witness statement that God created it in six ordinary-length days in the time of Adam. The family histories and patriarchal ages in Genesis continue this record. God then confirmed it to Moses and wrote it down with His own finger in stone in the Sabbath Commandment (Exodus 20:11; 31:18; 32:16).
Jesus then confirmed the authenticity of the OT scriptures—in detail and in its entirety2—by correctly predicting his own death and resurrection on their foundation. That is, death entered the world only as the penalty for Adam’s sin at the Fall, and Jesus, the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5:6–21) took our place and paid that penalty for us, thus restoring us to eternal life. Once the penalty was paid, death no longer had any hold on Him and He rose from the dead. Jesus’ Resurrection authenticates Genesis as real history. The Resurrection of Jesus, an attested fact of history (Acts 17:31)3, is thus our guarantee of the measured biblical time scale for the universe (Luke 24:27,44).
Scientists must assume and infer
No scientist has any alternative or better ‘birth certificate’ for the earth or the universe. All scientific estimates of earth and universe age require a whole lot of assumptions. The key assumption is uniformitarianism, which is atheism disguised as science, because it assumes no miraculous interventions in history.4 Christians have no reason to accept, and every reason to reject, atheistic assumptions about the universe.
Jesus’ Resurrection validates the accuracy of the Bible, especially its history of Creation and Fall. No Bible scholar since Jesus has risen from the dead to validate any alternative point of view. Don’t let anyone steal from you this precious gift that God has given us in the Bible.
“If the Bible is not to be believed about creation, it’s not to be believed.”
So, if we must believe everything in the bible, verbatim, what am I to make of this quote.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Do you have any slaves?
Glad we agree. Blessing to you.
"It's a real first,'' said Stanford physicist Stephen Harris, who collaborated on a 1999 experiment with Hau that slowed light to 38 miles (61 kilometers) per hour. "These experiments are beautiful science.''And as I mentioned earlier, it is likely that science will eventually find a way to speed up light (or light particles, if you prefer). The following is from the same article.In the latest experiments, researchers took steps to not only slow light to a virtual crawl, but to stop it completely.
Manipulating light's properties is a subject of intensely competitive research. In July, physicists in Princeton, New Jersey apparently pushed a laser pulse through a vapor of cesium atoms so it traveled faster than the conventional speed of light.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/lightstop_010119.html
However, I don't see an indication that the experiments were done with a goal of refuting or evading an explanation of "God did it." I think it was just good old basic human curiosity. Not all scientists perform their experiments with implicit/explicit declarations that God was not part of the original equation.
No, but apparently God was ok with slavery and man has outvoted him. At least, that’s what the bible says if you take it literally.
...he said, posting on his computer...
Meaning what? That technology is a product of scientific theory gotten right?
In this case, yes.
Making a rule about a practice accepted at some point in time does not endorse the practice itself.
The verse you referenced indicates that murder of a slave is unacceptable, not that slavery is acceptable.
As an example, most Christians are against abortion, but it is the law of the land at this point, so we are left with constraining the most repugnant forms of abortion by establishing laws that prevent partial-birth abortion. The limits placed on abortion do not endorse the practice of abortion.
Some would say that technology is merely a tool created to meet a need rather than an intended demonstration of a scientific theory. A modern-day man’s wheel or sharpened bone fragment, if you will.
But for the sake of discussion, let’s say that computers are a product of scientific theory gotten right. I have no problem with acknowledging that. Science does often “get it right” but it does just as often “get it wrong.”
The whole issue of the law and grace has been dealt with by others. It has no application on the question of whether or not the bible can be taken literaly.
But, give credit where it is due, you met the request for "a pre-20th century source (ante-nicene, apostloic, middle age commentary, etc.) that supports the "gap" assertion."
While these Kaballah "scholars" don't hold the gap theory per se, they do hold long ages of the Earth. Thanls for making me research Madonna's religion more closely. I do learn a lot on this site!
“The verse you referenced indicates that murder of a slave is unacceptable, not that slavery is acceptable.”
So, you are interpreting the bible by reading it the way you want. I read it very differently and concede that when the bible was written there was a very different view of slavery than there is today. But in either case, we are interpreting, which I think is acceptable. Those who say one should take the bible literally do as much interpreting as those who don’t take it literally.
It is fascinating to see any interpretation of Genesis 1 as longer periods of time when there was no reason to believe that Earth was older than a few thousand years. It lends credit to the idea as a sort of "untainted sample", no matter what other crazy beliefs they held (I don't think any of us are immune to at least a handful of crazy beliefs).
miles per second.
reality: 1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
We fundamentally disagree on what is true. All of what we believe to be true in terms of origins is based on some assumptions and beliefs. Take the age of the universe.
1. Fact: We can see starlight from distant stars
2. Fact: The speed of light in a vaccum, when measured on or near earth, travels at a given rate.
3. Assumption: C has always been (and is) constant.
4. Assumption: The stars arrived at their present locations (more or less) about 13 billion years ago.
5. Ipso facto Assumption: since we can see the stars, and light travels at a given rate, the furthest, and oldest, ones we can see are 13 billion light years away, and correspondingly 13 billion years old.
While you will accept assumptions 3-5 without question, I do not. I don't have much faith in scientific conjecture, only in the hard sciences that can be demonstrated in the laboratory. Thus, I will not "interpret" the Bible differently just because it seems popular or pragmatic to do so, if it violates the plain reading of the verses. To wit:
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
To reinterpret that passage to actually mean 13+ billion years requires that I completely dismiss the plain reading of the text, don't you agree?
I don't believe the refrigerator light actually goes out when I close the door. I think it is in there just running up my electric bill to be wasteful.
To be clear, I will stipulate that some Christians do interpret the Bible the way they want to or believe they should or have been taught to do and then use their interpretations to argue for or against moral or scientific issues.
What I am arguing is that it is erroneous to interpret the text of that particular verse as an endorsement or condemnation of slavery.
IF this was all there was then you might have a case to claim this literally means 24/7 hour days. However, note what Peter says.
IIPeter 1:3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you: in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance;
Now how is it we can have 'remembrance' if we were not literally there, well Peter explains how.
2 That ye may be mindful of the *WORDS* which were spoken *BEFORE* by the holy prophets, and of the *COMMANDMENTS* of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Who are the 'holy prophets' Peter is referring to? Well Moses is number one as it was Moses who penned the commandments, and what Peter continues to pen tells us what Moses knew when he penned Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and most likely Job.
IIPeter 3:3 Knowing this *FIRST*, that there shall come in the *last* days scoffers, walking after their own lust,
4 And saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
If no other Scripture can point to the times we live this one of Peter fully describes what the majority upon this earth claim.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,
that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Now again what are these *they* willingly are ignorant of???? that by the *WORD* of GOD the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Peter is NOT describing Noah's flood, as he already addressed Noah's flood in IIPeter 2:5.
6 Whereby the world that then *WAS*, being overflowed with water perished:
Jeremiah 4:22-27 describes this *OLD* age.
Note Jeremiah one of those 'holy' prophets states the state of mind of the Heavenly Father and what WAS.
Jeremiah 4:22 For My people is foolish, they have NOT known ME; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have NO knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.... (refers to Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 45:18)
Jeremiah is quoting Genesis 1:2 as condition that the heavens/and earth became. And yet the Father's children are foolish and sottish because they have none understanding, because there is NO reference anywhere describing Noah's flood as cause this earth to become without form, and void or light being removed.
Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
There is no reference anywhere that Noah's flood caused mountains to tremble or the hills moving lightly.
Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
In Noah's flood there was 'man', so this again is NOT describing Noah's flood... AND it also does not describe the physical body man was in when there was no man. The evidence we find upon this earth was there is NO fossilized human bones to be found when this event took place.
26 I beheld, and , lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by HIS fierce anger.
Oh my there were cities???
27 For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be lack: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. Numbers 23:19
29 -31 Has not yet happened.
Back to IIPeter 3:7 BUT the heavens and the earth which are NOW, by the same *WORD* are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the *day* of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
The earth which is NOW, is NOW wherein the flesh clay pot was formed for that soul/spirit to come from above to be born of woman John 3:3.... the requirement for any child to see the kingdom of God.
Here is the 'key' to the missing understanding and willing ignorance...
8 BUT, beloved, be NOT ignorant of this one thing,
that one day with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
How long did Methuselah live, not quite ONE DAY with the LORD.
“I will stipulate that some Christians do interpret the Bible the way they want to or believe they should or have been taught to do and then use their interpretations to argue for or against moral or scientific issues.”
No doubt that is true, but it seems to me that reading the bible is not enough. So much of what is being taught in the bible isn’t directly stated, but told through stories or quotes. Some of the most enlightening moments come from discussing these passages with people of faith and coming to a deeper understanding of what was meant to be conveyed. I think to try and use the bible to refute or support science is of little value, any more than the value of using science to argue moral issues.
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