Posted on 12/14/2008 2:14:06 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
QUEENSBURY — A local man’s challenge of President-elect Barack Obama’s citizenship has been garnering national attention, if not credibility.
Robert Schulz of Queensbury is the founder and chairman of We The People, a group dedicated to upholding strict adherence to the state and U.S. constitutions.
He says there’s compelling evidence that Obama was born in Kenya, not on U.S. soil, which he contends would make him ineligible to become president. On Thursday, Schulz mailed letters to all members of the Electoral College, asking them to delay the Dec. 15 official balloting until the citizenship questions are cleared up.
"We really like this guy," he said of Obama, "but we like the Constitution a bit more. For someone who’s dedicated the past 30 years trying to uphold the Constitution, how could I let this go by and maintain any kind of credibility? It’s up to Mr. Obama to set the facts straight and he refuses to do so."
Facts seem to line up against Schulz’s argument. Hawaii Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino and the state’s registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have said they checked health department records and determined there is no doubt Obama was born in Hawaii.
In addition, the nonpartisan Web site www.factcheck.org examined the original document and said it does have a raised seal and the usual evidence of a genuine document. The site also reproduced an announcement of Obama’s birth, including his parents’ address in Honolulu, that was published in the "Honolulu Advertiser" on Aug. 13, 1961.
None of that fazes Schulz, who placed two full-page ads in The Chicago Tribune and on Monday held a news conference at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.
(Excerpt) Read more at saratogian.com ...
Pat and thoughtless answer. Indonesia can control who is a citizen of their country. No one with US citizenship could attend the schools he attended. Had to be a Indonesian citizen. So next you'll say Barrack Obama didn't attend those schools. You'd be right. Barry Soetoro did.
I gave the source link. Try google too. There is a great amount of info. Unless you want to deny there was a war going on in Afghanistan that Pakistan was embroiled in.
Guy, the left’s favourite dish is lamb. Guess who’s on the menu.
I play in a 45 player hodem sit-n-go every afternoon.
I believe Leo and Cort and SOME of the others are sincere. That doesn't mean they'll get anywhere, but I hope they do. At least they're giving it a shot. They certainly are swimming upstream.
I can't imagine there is a single FReeper that believes Obama is on the level.
The Post-Star, based just north of Saratoga, ran a similar article as the headline story last week. Ed-in-chief, Ken Tingley, said he respects Schultz’s efforts on some things, but that he thinks he is “tilting at windmills” on this one. I don’t know if it’s still online, but his opinion piece sparked a lot of comments at the online Post-Star website.
Leo knows when to go all-in and call a bluff... I think he’s on to a good one this time.!!
I think its intersting the MSM label us as “fringe”... I always thought these people were on the fringe:
Obama’s supporters: William Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn, Malik Zulu Shabazz, Daniel Ortega, Hugo Chavez, Jodie Evans, Maria Isabel, Ali Abunimah, Louis Farrakhan, Carl Davidson,Sam Graham-Felsen, Father Michael Pfleger, Rashid Khalidi, Moammar Qaddafi, Kim Jong Il, Mike Klonsky, Marilyn Katz, Carl Davidson, Ali Abunimah, Frank Marshal Davis, Jeremiah Wright, Tony Rezko, Kieth Ellison, Sam Graham-Felsen, Raila Ordinga, Fidel & Raul Castro, George Galloway, Segolene Royal, Zakiyah Omar, Mike Klonsky, Tom Hayden, Bob Pardun, Paul Buhle, Mickey and Dick Flacks, Todd Gitlin, Sami Al-Arian, Rev James Meeks et al... and don’t forget the Chicago Crime Machine.... including Ginsbergs son Jim and others.
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
Highlights:
B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
- appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
- in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
- sign an oath of renunciation
Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect.
Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship. (Emphasis added)
You made a statement — “Your charts bogus”
Now you send me an INA reg about adoption.
Are you confused or disingenuous?
What’s wrong with the chart (with documentation)?
Obama was 20 when he went to Pakistan. Maybe using an Indonesian passport. From a country that didn't allow dual citizenship.
And that determination by Indonesia has no effect on U.S. citizenship status. Period. U.S. citizenship status is determined by the U.S. government and no other.
No one with US citizenship could attend the schools he attended. Had to be a Indonesian citizen.
So you say. Do you have documentation for that? Did Indonesian schools check the papers of their students, or did they simply assume that the stepson of an Indonesian citizen was eligible? Was the law enforced? Could Soetero have slipped a school official a few bucks to get young Barry in?
You cannot, under U.S. law, accidentally renounce U.S. citizenship. Treason, serving in the armed forces of another nation hostile to the U.S., serving in a policy position of a foreign government, conviction of treason are all grounds for expatriation, but only if they evince an intention to renounce citizenship. Attending an Indonesian school does not come close to reaching that standard.
I gave the source link.
You gave a link to a blog that has no source for its factual claims and piles a lot of suppositions on top of them. That is not a source; it's just another repetition of the claim.
Try google too.
I found a lot more of the same.
There is a great amount of info.
Volume does not impute credibility, especially in the age of the blogs. An unfounded claim that is picked up by five more bloggers, or five hundred, or five thousand, nonetheless remains an unfounded claim.
Unless you want to deny there was a war going on in Afghanistan that Pakistan was embroiled in.
With encouragement and funding from the U.S. Point?
He could not get a passport from Indonesia unless he was an citizen of Indonesia. He could not be both. How'd he get into Pakistan since there were travel restrictions for Americans? There was a war. Are you old enough to remember?
You cannot, under U.S. law, accidentally renounce U.S. citizenship
Getting an Indonesian passport at 20 wouldn't be an accident now, would it.
You gave a link to a blog that has no source for its factual claims and piles a lot of suppositions on top of them. That is not a source; it's just another repetition of the claim.
Are you too young to know what was going on in 1981?
With encouragement and funding from the U.S. Point?
What does that have to do with it? It was not an American vacation spot in 1981
Is it your contention that the Indonesian government has the power to strip someone of U.S. citizenship?
He could have applied for reinstatement of his US citizenship, for a period of 6 months after his eighteenth birthday.
And he could have applied for asylum as a refugee from Alpha Centauri. It would have been an equally pointless gesture. There was no need to "reinstate" his U.S. citizenship, as it was never in doubt or in danger (assuming, for the moment, that he was born in the U.S. in the first place).
Freeper Sorry screen name in use: Blago is corrupt, he wanted at least a cool mill and a five year cozy chair for the Senate seat
NEWSMAN JIM LEHRER: So? What's the big deal here?
Freeper Sorry screen name in use: That's abuse of power, soliciting bribes.
NEWSMAN JIM LEHRER: Yeah? You're a wing-nut. I mean there's always been trade-offs. That's what I'm saying.
Freeper Sorry screen name in use: Obama's up to his neck in it.
NEWSMAN JIM LEHRER: Right, OK. Sure. You right wing haters are all alike. Racists. Obama has nothing to do with this situation, besides that there's nothing wrong here. It's a tempest in a teapot, stirred up by all the troofers and wing-nuts.
Freeper Sorry screen name in use: I can't understand your saying that this is all okay -- it isn't it's criminal!
NEWSMAN JIM LEHRER: Look, here's what I'm actually essentially asking here, is that -- is that he just went over the line of something that is the way you do business. Blagojevich, that is. Obama did not go over the line, Obama is doing business just the way it has to be done.
Freeper Sorry screen name in use: But that way is Chicago Politics -- it's corrupt, it's full of bribes and abuse of official powers.
NEWSMAN JIM LEHRER: You have no evidence of that, all just your loony conspiracy theories. And stop the racist hectoring of President-elect Obama. Even Supreme Court Justice Ginsberg's son vouches for Obama. You can't get any more authoritative than that. Are you calling HER corrupt?
Freeper Sorry screen name in use: ... sigh ... !
Assuming for the sake of argument that he was an Indonesian citizen, that is a determination of the Indonesian government. In the eyes of the Indonesian government, he would not be a U.S. citizen; if arrested, he would have no right to be represented by the U.S. embassy, and he would no be allowed to travel into or out of Indonesia on a U.S. passport.
That determination of the Indonesian government does not overrule the U.S. law on U.S. citizenship.
There is a common and mistaken belief that "dual citizenship" is some sort of formal status universally recognized around the world. It just ain't so. A dual citizen is someone who is a citizen of two countries under the law of each. One government's opinion is not binding on the other.
If you're a U.S. and Israeli citizen, for example, you must travel into and out of the U.S. on an U.S. passport. If you're arrested in the U.S., you have no right to contact the Israeli embassy. If you're arrested in Israel, you will not be extradited to the U.S. or any other country, because that is the policy of the Israeli government.
There was a war. Are you old enough to remember?
Yes. There was a war. That fact has no bearing on the citizenship status of Barack Obama or anyone else.
It was not an American vacation spot in 1981
Obama went somewhere few Americans went. That act did not strip him of his citizenship.
I still say you must be too young to remember the mess that was Pakistan in 1981. No American went there on vacation.
I made no such statement, and don't know what chart you're talking about.
Now you send me an INA reg about adoption.
I sent you the U.S. State Department's Web page on how someone can renounce or be stripped of U.S. citizenship. Since it is the State Department that determines citizenship status, its opinion is authoritative.
What’s wrong with the chart (with documentation)?
I've paged back through the thread, and can't find a chart.
He could have. There is no evidence that he did, and not a single one of the legal cases currently pending makes the claim that he did.
The U.S. government regulations on renouncing citizenship are very specific, and if you're going to claim that Obama met those requirements, then the burden is on you to back the claim up. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt would be nice. Preponderance of the evidence would be okay. The barest thread of evidence would be a start.
He stated that he went to see his mother and sister in Indonesia. He also saw muslim friends from college. His admission. Why was he rooming with muslims?
Why wouldn't he? If it's your contention that having friends is ipso facto suspicious, then that's another issue that's not germane to his citizenship status.
There's a lot here that you cannot explain away. I'm shocked that you're trying. Show me his citizenship status in college. You can't. He sealed his records. Why?
Relevance? If he was born a US citizen, he was still one in college.
I still say you must be too young to remember the mess that was Pakistan in 1981.
It is your right as an American to say whatever you want.
No American went there on vacation.
Again, you're arguing that Obama went somewhere few Americans went. So what? That has no bearing on his status as a U.S. citizen.
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