Posted on 12/12/2008 10:02:26 AM PST by Joiseydude
Oh for crying out loud... the Bible did not even exist for the first three centuries of Christianity... So then, without sola scriptura, how did Christians believe after the death of the Apostles? TRADITION came BEFORE the BIBLE. That is a fact of Christian History. And if you knew HOW to read the Bible IN CONTEXT, concerning prophecy, then you would know that Mary was pre-ordained and pre-figured in the Old Testament. Oh, wait... I forgot... PROTESTants exorcised the cannon of whatever scriptural books and citations contradicted your political agenda for personal interpretaion, liberty without restraint and the separation of Church and State.
Now, unless you are aligned with the works of the devil, please stop this digression from the issue at hand.
Just how doggone far are you willing to let the devil go before you stand with a spine, and act to defend honor, integrity and good over evil?
Islam is a false religion... a political tool, and a construct of the devil. There is nothing remotely good about it. It is a work dedicated to conquest by the sword. The difference is that Islam is not content to keep its own, but desires to enslave, by force, all within its reach. We did not attack Islam... IT attacked us, as has been the case since the sixth century.
Here, the powers of Hell are attacking the Christian Faith... and we need to respond to this attack, and not with passivity.
If you ignore evil, then soon you will mirror evil, and not know the difference.
I’m not mistaken.
This is one of THE major doctronial differences between Catholics and non-cotholics.
There’s not point in us arguing the point here (as we’re not going to change each other’s minds.) I understand your point. It is the Catholic position, and I have researched the reasoning behind it.
If you’ll take some time to do some research, you’ll find that I didn’t just pull my position out of a hat. It is standard doctrine for most non-catholic Christians (about 1 billion people worldwide.)
God doesnt need us to do his work anymore than we need him to do our bidding.
*******************
So what is your opinion about the current state of society? If that is your interest, why didn't you discuss the issue?
some of us would consider your statement blasphemy
I am aware of this fact, and, in the interest of preserving charity, I agree that we leave this point of contention, and focus on the matter at hand: the implicit insult-blasphemy against the Mother of Christ. (You may think it an insult... and I shall think it a blasphemy.)
Now the question remains: What is to be done about it? We must not ignore this creeping cancer. Indifference to these infringements only breeds greater indifference in all other aspects of the moral law... and thus propagates the eventual collapse of all moral foundations.
Sorry - Mary was favored by God but no more sinless than you or I. She needed a redeemer as much as any of us, and said so during her Magnificat. There was nothing inherently special about Mary, God could have chosen another and his plan would not have been altered in the slightest. Jesus Christ is the focus of our salvation, and He existed long before He became incarnate and long before Mary.
Oh for crying out loud... the Bible did not even exist for the first three centuries of Christianity... So then, without sola scriptura, how did Christians believe after the death of the Apostles? TRADITION came BEFORE the BIBLE. That is a fact of Christian History. And if you knew HOW to read the Bible IN CONTEXT, concerning prophecy, then you would know that Mary was pre-ordained and pre-figured in the Old Testament. Oh, wait... I forgot... PROTESTants exorcised the cannon of whatever scriptural books and citations contradicted your political agenda for personal interpretaion(SIC), liberty without restraint and the separation of Church and State.
Now, unless you are aligned with the works of the devil, please stop this digression from the issue at hand.
81 posted on December 12, 2008 12:29:24 PM MST by TCH
Yah'shua (Jesus) taught from the Torah (Holy Word of Elohim), To say to say TRADITION came BEFORE the BIBLE Mary was not required; Welcome to FR Religion forum.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
which existed many centuries before the Third Century.
demonstrates a complete ignorance of the Word of G-d.
what was required was a virgin
from a line of the tribe of David
which was not cursed.
Ping for the religion forum
The Tanak long proceeds the New Testament and were the only Scriptures in possession of the Apostles until they wrote down the Gospels and the rest of the NT canon decades later.
If you can't prove Mary's perpetual virginity from the Tanak (which you can't), her freedom from original sin (which you can't), then it is YOU and your church which doesn't read the Bible in context, not me.
Just to clear any confusion: Christ is our Creator, Lord and God. Mary is not.
However, Mary was and is indispensable in God’s Plan of salvation. If not, then why bother having Christ to be born of a woman? God the Father could just as easily have said: “Hey, Jesus, My Only Begotten Son... why don’t you take a stroll down there on planet Earth, and save humanity from them selves for Me?” Please explain how one gets around the “sticky wicket” of not passing Original Sin onto Christ, when Our Lord is BOTH FULLLY HUMAN AND FULLY GOD, the perfect union of divine and human natures, unless Mary was also perfectly conceived, immaculate through the single unique favor of God? If no such favor were needed, then there would be no point in having Christ born of a woman. Or do you believe that Christ’s flesh can be created from imperfection? That would be in conflict with Who He Is… I AM WHO AM.
Christ is and was the ‘Lamb of God’ from before time, and for all eternity. He was both fully God and fully Man from all eternity… Remember in the Garden, the Lord walked with Adam. In this we have a great Mystery. Since, Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, the Second Person of The Holy Trinity, exists outside of time, then Mary’s redemption was given her outside of time... from the beginning... pre-ordained by God. God knew his plan for Humanity from the beginning. God would not just set Christ into Mary’s un-immaculate human womb, firstly, because God cannot be contained in an impure vessel; and, secondly, because God’s flesh and bone cannot be “knitted” from flesh corrupted with Original Sin, a feat that would defy Christian theology and defeat the necessary requirement that the bloody sacrifice of Christ’s death be that of the pure, unblemished Lamb of God. He whom takes away the Sin of the World. Mary is the ‘Arc of the Covenant’… that New Covenant established by Christ at the Last Supper. She carried the all perfect Living Word in her womb… her “arc” made perfect by God, just as the Israelites carried the Written Word of God in the arc they constructed from imperfect man-made materials. The Arc of the Old Covenant prefigured the Arc of the New Covenant. All Biblical prophesy is of similar kind, having always two parts: the immediate partial revelation and execution, and the future complete revelation and consumation. One compliments the other.
God is Omni potent, omni present and omni prescient. Therefore it is not impossible that He create one human woman free from the stain of Original Sin, so to accomplish the necessary act that Christ be born of human flesh and thus be the true ‘Son of Man.’
The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is in perfect reason with the Bible and Tradition. God created plants for their simplicity; He created animals for their innocence; and, He created man for his intellect and free will to love the One God who created him. We have intellect, so we are expected to use it. The Christian Faith is a faith built on and expressed through reason.
“...She needed a redeemer as much as any of us, and said so during her Magnificat. ...”
No one denies such. The issue is one of WHEN she became redeemed. You believe that an act of Man, Baptism with water, frees a human from the stain of Original Sin, yet you find impossible to believe that an Act of God would do as much without human intervention.
Excuse but “the Torah (Holy Word of Elohim), which existed many centuries before the Third Century” is NOT the Bible. The Bible is a COLLECTION of books and letters, taken from both the Old Testament, the Gospel of Christ, and the encyclicals and Acts of the Apostles.
“Mary was not required;
what was required was a virgin
from a line of the tribe of David
which was not cursed.”
Don’t be semantical. Obviously Mary is from the line of David and is a virgin.
Liberals feel so threatened by Christians, and they know that Christianity is their biggest obstacle in trying to socialize society. They want to continue to tear it down. Liberals think they are more intellectual and generally on a higher plain than us. These people will have a rude awakening face God someday. God will have the last word.
LOL!
Playboy is behind it. Playboy is a magazine that plays on lust by using women as sexual objects. They are mocking Jesus and his mother by turning her into a sexual object, especially when the Bible says lust is wrong.
I thought exactly the same thing. They like to pick on the Christians because they know we will protest peacefully. They wouldn’t dare do that to the Muslims who would riot and take their heads off.
Mexico is a Catholic country. I have attended Mass in their churches, with their Priests many, many times. No matter what the government thinks, the majority of the people are Catholics and practice their faith.
Pope John Paul went to Mexico several times, to huge crowds.
It is only objectionable from a religious standpoint. So why don't you move this thread from News/Activism to Religion.
Thank you.
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