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Why it's not as simple as God vs the multiverse (We create the universe?)
New Scientist ^ | Dec 4, 2008 | Amanda Gefter

Posted on 12/08/2008 6:27:04 PM PST by SeekAndFind

WHAT would you rather believe in, God or the multiverse? It sounds like an instance of cosmic apples and oranges, but increasingly we're being told it's choice we must make. Take the dialogue earlier this year between Richard Dawkins and physicist Steven Weinberg in Austin, Texas. Discussing the fact that universe appears fine-tuned for our existence, Weinberg told Dawkins: "If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or multiverse."

Weinberg went on to clarify that invoking a benevolent designer does not count as a genuine explanation, but I was intrigued by his either/or scenario. Is that really our only choice? Supernatural creator or parallel worlds?

It is according to an article in this month's Discover magazine. "Short of invoking a benevolent creator, many physicists see only one possible explanation," writes journalist Tim Folger. "Our universe may be but one of perhaps infinitely many universes in an inconceivably vast multiverse." Folger quotes cosmologist Bernard Carr: "If you don't want God, you'd better have a multiverse."

There are plenty of reasons to take the multiverse seriously. Three key theories - quantum mechanics, cosmic inflation and string theory - all converge on the idea. But the reason physicists talk about the multiverse as an alternative to God is because it helps explain why the universe is so bio-friendly. From the strength of gravity to the mass of a proton, it's as if the universe were designed just for us. If, however, there are an infinite number of universes - with physical constants that vary from one to the next - our cosy neighbourhood isn't only possible, it's inevitable.

But to suggest that if this theory doesn't pan out our only other option is a supernatural one is to abandon science itself.

(Excerpt) Read more at newscientist.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bible; god; idiotalert; intelligentdesign; multiverse; readthebible; stuckonstupid
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1 posted on 12/08/2008 6:27:05 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Weinberg went on to clarify that invoking a benevolent designer does not count as a genuine explanation

Neither does the "multiverse", if he wishes to be intellectually consistent.

2 posted on 12/08/2008 6:29:21 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Nihil utile nisi quod honestum - Marcus Tullius Cicero)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Neither does the "multiverse", if he wishes to be intellectually consistent.

Why?

3 posted on 12/08/2008 6:34:28 PM PST by hc87
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
What really intrigued me ( and what caused me to put the subtitle to this article ) is this statement :

Pitting the multiverse against religion presents a false dichotomy. Science never boils down to a choice between two alternative explanations. It is always plausible that both are wrong and a third or fourth or fifth will turn out to be correct.

What might a third option look like here? Physicist John Wheeler once offered a suggestion: maybe we should approach cosmic fine-tuning not as a problem but as a clue. Perhaps it is evidence that we somehow endow the universe with certain features by the mere act of observation. It’s an idea that Stephen Hawking has been thinking about, too. Hawking advocates what he calls top-down cosmology, in which observers are creating the universe and its entire history right now. If we in some sense create the universe, it is not surprising that the universe is well suited to us.


Get that ? WE ARE GOD. WE CREATE THE UNIVERSE !!
4 posted on 12/08/2008 6:34:46 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

As yes. The ultimate excuse. A “scientific” theory that can’t be proved. The smug self-satisfaction of arrogance.


5 posted on 12/08/2008 6:36:42 PM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand. If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Who gets to define “supernatural?” Who defined “science,” or the “scientific method of inquiry?” All these, and more, very useful to us within their limits, are constructs of the human mind, which often defies rationality by its own standards and has not a corner on absolute truth, IMO.
Many natural phenomena, noted in for example weather phenomena or the stars and planets, once were inexplicable, frightening to we “savages,” and “supernatural.” It seems to be fluid concept.


6 posted on 12/08/2008 6:36:46 PM PST by Elsiejay
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; SeekAndFind
And how pray tell did moral philosophers discount the notion that if I choose not to be an axe murderer in this universe, that I must necessarily choose to be an axe murderer in one of the other infinite number of multiverses?

Multiverses have been banging around as an idea for decades, and I have not heard once how they jibe with the laws of conservation of mass/energy.

Why do we all of a sudden obtain a "get out of jail free card" with regard to conservation of mass/energy just because it ends up in a different universe?

Multiverses are amoral and anti-scientific.

7 posted on 12/08/2008 6:38:39 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (The cosmos is about the smallest hole a man can stick his head in. - Chesterton)
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To: SeekAndFind

If everything exists in multiverse, then God exists there also. Believing in multiverses demands a belief in God.

Case closed.


8 posted on 12/08/2008 6:44:36 PM PST by A.Hun (Common sense is no longer common.)
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To: SeekAndFind

The extremes to which some of these so-called “scientists” go — in order to get away from “God” — is absolutely hilarious...

They will come up with the most *crackpot* ideas in order to not invoke God... :-)


9 posted on 12/08/2008 6:45:07 PM PST by Star Traveler
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To: Elsiejay
Who gets to define “supernatural?” Who defined “science,” or the “scientific method of inquiry?” All these, and more, very useful to us within their limits, are constructs of the human mind, which often defies rationality by its own standards and has not a corner on absolute truth

Like you said, great post. 

10 posted on 12/08/2008 6:48:17 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: hc87

“Why?”

in a multiverse there are a zillion other universes where hc87 (who is really a 12 legged unicorn) posted “why not?”


11 posted on 12/08/2008 6:49:06 PM PST by ari-freedom (Conservatives solve problems. Libertarians ignore problems. Liberals create problems.)
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To: A.Hun
If everything exists in multiverse, then God exists there also. Believing in multiverses demands a belief in God.

Well, the irony is this --- the multiverse idea is posited IN ORDER to AVOID the idea of intelligent design.

Note this paragraph in the article :

"But to suggest that if this theory doesn't pan out our only other option is a supernatural one is to abandon science itself. Not only is it an unfounded leap of logic, it suggests intelligent design offers as valid an explanation as a cosmological theory does, and lends credence to creationists' mistaken claim that the multiverse was invented to serve as science's get-out-of-God-free card."
12 posted on 12/08/2008 6:49:57 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: Star Traveler

agreed
As they discover more and more about how God made the worlds Man’s “smartest minds” get more desparate to explain away their Creator.

The explainations get whackier all time. I shudder to think what science will be saying 100 years from now.


13 posted on 12/08/2008 6:51:28 PM PST by Gasshog (going to get what all those libs asked for, but its not what they expected.)
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To: SeekAndFind

It may rule out a particular type of God, but not God in general.


14 posted on 12/08/2008 6:53:27 PM PST by Moonman62 (The issue of whether cheap labor makes America great should have been settled by the Civil War.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Dawkins, like most all Atheists operates 30 milliseconds slower than church going folks.

What that means is that his opinion on anything has no meaning for real human beings.

15 posted on 12/08/2008 6:53:46 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: SeekAndFind
the multiverse idea is posited IN ORDER to AVOID the idea of intelligent design.

Yep, I know...it won't work though. It's just another ploy to downplay God and He always wins in the end.

16 posted on 12/08/2008 6:54:45 PM PST by A.Hun (Common sense is no longer common.)
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To: Elsiejay
Given a "Multiverse" with an infinite array of constituent universes, at least one of them showed up having an omnipotent God Who can stand astride all time and space.

End of the argument.

17 posted on 12/08/2008 6:55:09 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: hc87
Why?

Presumably (if what I've seen elsewhere by he and other's writing about the multiverse applies here), Dr. Weinberg finds the explanation of a benevolent designer to be "not genuine" because it relies upon the recourse to an entity which cannot be "scientifically", i.e. empirically observed. But guess what? Neither can these proposed multiverses. They are as much as a figment of the imaginations of cosmologists as God is said by these same cosmologists to be a figment of the imaginations of religionists.

18 posted on 12/08/2008 6:57:50 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Nihil utile nisi quod honestum - Marcus Tullius Cicero)
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To: All



19 posted on 12/08/2008 6:59:17 PM PST by Cindy
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To: SeekAndFind

the multiverse is just like the epicycles that were used to prop up Ptolemaic astronomy. When you don’t have a case, you look for the most convoluted explanations.


20 posted on 12/08/2008 7:09:28 PM PST by ari-freedom (Conservatives solve problems. Libertarians ignore problems. Liberals create problems.)
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