Creationism and the advance of counterknowledge

Telegraph ^ | Friday, September 12, 2008 | Damian Thompson

[js1138]

The 21st century is plagued by wild speculation and fantasies dressed up in graphs and tables and diagrams to look like independently verifiable fact. For example, Muslim lobbyists are currently pouring millions of pounds into producing bogus "atlases of creation", lavishly decorated with photographs and charts "proving" that every living species was created at the same time.

This material is currently being delivered free of charge to schools all over Europe. If it emanated from fundamentalist Christian America, I suspect it would be dumped in the wastepaper basket. But schools are more wary of offending the views of Muslim or Hindu pupils - and then along comes a useful idiot such as Prof Reiss to suggest that it's OK to examine this "worldview" in science classes.

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

What is your view on the so-called “junk DNA”?

[js1138]

My point is that there are degrees of proof in Science, and physical theories addressed by repeatable laboratory experiments are useful and valid in circumscribed conditions. Theories that attempt to describe the history of life on Earth are incomplete composites of laboratory theory, and are extrapolative, and should be assigned less of a confidence rating.

All theories extrapolate. Astronomers extrapolate the positions of planets over time. Geologists extrapolate the movement of continents based on contemporary measurements. Physicists extrapolate measurements of cloud chamber phenomena to the universe at large.

So what?

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

"The most recent experiments on E.coli make this clear. "

if left to itself, in a stable macroenvironment with suitable nutrients and energy sources, subject to the known forces of mutation, how long would it take for a culture of E.coli to evolve into a human-like organism? Can you cite any references or studies?

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

You mean the way evolutionists go berserk when creationists want to bring the Bible back into schools, like in the days when:

1) there were no school shootings 2) many more of the girls were virgins 3) you understand ...

predatory homosexual priets, Jim Bakker, Tammy Faye, Jimmy Swaggart,...

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

"All theories extrapolate."

I agree insofar as theories make new predictions to be checked. Discovery (or lack thereof) is a never ending process.

[Kevmo]

bmflr

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

"Name any non-trivial assertion in science that is definitely proved. "

To a high degree of repeatability:

1) special relativity

I believe Special Relativity has an object with mass no matter how slight becoming infinitely massive, with a length of zero, and time stopped once it reaches the speed of light. We have experimental evidence of this?

[js1138]

http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

What is the experimental basis of Special Relativity?

Apparatus to measure relativistic mass increase

[js1138]

I agree insofar as theories make new predictions to be checked. Discovery (or lack thereof) is a never ending process.

True, and what differentiates evolution from creationism and ID is the range of predictions that can be checked. Most spcifically the nested hierarchies of similarities and differences among living things.

[js1138]

What is your view on the so-called “junk DNA”?

It's an opportunity for research.

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

"has an object with mass no matter how slight becoming infinitely massive, with a length of zero, and time stopped once it reaches the speed of light. We have experimental evidence of this? "

According to the theory of Special Relativity, it would take infinite energy to get to exactly light speed, but particles can be accelerated to almost the speed of light, and their momentum measured directly, and the mass increase derived from the measurement.

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

Thanks for the link, I’ll check it out and respond.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

According to the theory of Special Relativity, it would take infinite energy to get to exactly light speed,

If the propellant is on board with the object, then it's mass increases with the object and tends to infinity; it should be sufficient to provide the infinite energy source. But, back to your earlier point, I believe there is no proof of this ever happening.

[ROTB]

predatory homosexual priets, Jim Bakker, Tammy Faye, Jimmy Swaggart,...

****************************

Have you missed the threads on predatory teachers? Much safe is my child (not a parent, not a Catholic) in Catholic school and mass than in a public school

As you know, the media holds conservative/Christians to exponentially higher standards than regular secular folk.

[ROTB]

Horses and fruit bats came about during the Cambrian explosion? Dinosaurs and placental mammals were there during the Cambrian explosion? Wow are you confused.

There is also no scientific support for the idea that there was a universal flood some few thousand years ago and that all terrestrial animals evolved from common descent from these creatures deposited on Mt Ararat (long way for that poor armadillo to swim!).

****************************

Read my post again. The word “though” connotes my doubt that there was a “Cambrian explosion.” I am a young earth creationist.

www.answersingenesis.org is one of the places where young earth creationism is espoused. I’m convinced. I suggest (but obviously can’t command) that you check it out, and see for yourself.

Have a great day.

[js1138]

Particle accelerators have to take relativity into account as particles approach the speed of light. No one can accelerate a particle to the speed of light, but the energy required to accelerate a particle to near the speed of light is comparable to the energy used by a city, due to the increase in mass.

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

"what differentiates evolution from creationism and ID is the range of predictions that can be checked."

I would have to say that I am not quite a literal Creationist, but I sympathize with both ends of this spectrum and want to see what might be in the gap between the two ends, that of intelligent agent intervention or design at some time in the past.

If Evolution has a quantitative theory, it would be a useful baseline to compare to observation.

Exobiology, if it find examples of life on other planets in our Solar System or inferred from observations of spectra of planets around other stars, can provide data points to compare to the Evolutionary model.

Panspermia, unintentional transport of life across interstellar space, or even directed dispersion of life forms, are all possibilities.

[js1138]

If the propellant is on board with the object, then it's mass increases with the object and tends to infinity; it should be sufficient to provide the infinite energy source.

I think you need to re-read some basic physics here.

[Brian S. Fitzgerald]

" it should be sufficient to provide the infinite energy source. "

infinite energy would exceed the energy of the known universe, but I think we've accelerated electrons up to at least 99.99997 percent the speed of light.

Alspector et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 36, pg 837 (1976).
A comparison of neutrino and muon velocities, at Fermilab.

Kalbfleisch et al., Physics Review Letters 43, pg 1361 (1979).
A comparison of muon, neutrino, and antineutrino velocities over a range of energies, at Fermilab.

Guiragosian et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 34 no. 6 (1975), pg 335.
Relative velocity measurements of 15 GeV electrons and gammas. No significant difference was observed within ~2 parts in 107. See also Brown et al.

G.L. Greene et al.,“Test of special relativity by a determination of the Lorentz limiting velocity: Does E=mc2?” Physical Review D 44 (1991) R2216.
An analysis combining the results of several experiments gives the result that the Lorentz limiting velocity must be equal to the speed of light to within 12 parts per million.

Stodolsky, “The Speed of Light and the Speed of Neutrinos”, Phys. Lett. B201 no. 3 (1988), pg 353.
A comparison of neutrino and photon speeds from supernova SN1987A puts a limit of about 1 part in 108 on their speed difference.