Fight in Georgia Exposed Weak Points in Kremlin's Aging Army

The Wall Street Journal ^ | August 14, 2008 | JEANNE WHALEN

[lizol]

Fight in Georgia Exposed Weak Points in Kremlin's Aging Army

By JEANNE WHALEN

August 14, 2008; Page A6

MOSCOW -- The Kremlin's short and victorious campaign in Georgia shows that Russia's military has improved from its dilapidated state in the 1990s, but analysts said the aging equipment and tactics also underscored how much more work Moscow faces in its quest to turn its army into a world-class fighting force.

Modernizing Russia's military has been a major priority for the Kremlin, which has boosted annual military spending from about $7 billion in the late 1990s to about $35 billion today, with further increases planned. Last year, then-President Vladimir Putin installed a new defense minister who vowed to accelerate efforts to make the military more compact, nimble and better equipped.

The military made fast work of what it called "Operation Clear Field," sending Georgian troops into retreat early in the five-day conflict over the South Ossetia separatist region. To many that was no surprise, given that Russia's million-strong military dwarfs Georgia's modest armed forces. "You would expect the Russians to roll over the Georgians," says Siemon Wezeman, a weaponry expert at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

Some military experts said they saw signs of more modern equipment in Russia's armory, including smart bombs. And the losses Russia reported Wednesday -- 74 dead, 19 missing and 171 hospitalized with wounds -- were "limited," says Alexander Pikayev, director of the department for disarmament and conflict resolution at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations in Moscow.

[MinorityRepublican]

Russians used same quantity of troops agains georgians as Georgians hade. And they destroyed them. NATO modeled Georgian army was crushed, without Pentagon knowing that Russians entered Georgia!

Yes, that's true. It should had taken two weeks for the Russians to crush the Georgians instead of two days.

[Citizen Blade]

You might start by referencing the last major Russian military victory prior to their recent Georgian operation.

Defeating the Germans in WWII? That's a pretty big deal. Other than Afghanistan, I can't actually think of any war they fought in during the interim.

And I might add, we’re not talking about Patton’s views on Jews, we’re talking about his views on the slavic savages of Russia.

You can't pick and choose here. You seem to be claiming that Patton was a good judge of national character. If he's right about the Slavs, then why do you questions his judgment regarding the Jews?

[kronos77]

1. M-16. Would use something like Gallil or Serbian M-21
2. Switch back to recruit Army, leaving only elite units professional.
3. Implement AA missile systems like Russians have, abandoning Air defence leaning on the Airforce.
4. Scrapped toys like F-22 and build more A-10s
5. Stopped building carriers nad build more tanks, APCs, IFVs, self-propelled guns
6. Make conscript (recruit) army so that evry US citizen feels as part of national defence.

For starters...

[elcid1970]

Russia (eleven time zones wide) attacks tiny Georgia.

Naked aggression by a Stalinist regime.

Eta vsyo. Ty ponimayesh seichas?

[Citizen Blade]

Hey Comrade, the only reason the Soviets won the ‘Great Patriotic War’ was because of tons of lend lease from the U.S. and the West that was never paid for

It would have taken a year longer, but the consensus among historians is that the Russians would have won against the Germans, with or without our help.

When the Germans failed to take Moscow and Russia stayed in the war, it became a war of attrition, which the Germans simply could not win.

[kronos77]

My age is irrelevant. Refute the historical facts, if you’re able.

---

So... 17 i bett.

You know why I ask you? If you are under 20, you do not remember Soviet union, and you grew-up on movies portraying Russians as ill-equiped, low-morale, corrupted army.
My friend...
For past week Iw listened on FR people talking BULL***T like “Lets send batallion os 2,000 marines to take care of Russians in Georgia”

[Citizen Blade]

Switch back to recruit Army, leaving only elite units professional.

The military has no interest in this, and rightfully so. The age of large conscript armies has passed.

[kronos77]

Not at all.
In 1948 Stallin allmost invaded Serbia (Yugoslavia)
We recieved US aid F-84s, F-86s, M-47s etc..
But Stallin halted.. we hade guts.
When later revieled by historians, asked why he dednt attacked Serbia he said
“Im not as stupid as Hitler was to loose my elite troops in years of partisan warfare. I am not stupid I will not cross Danube”

NOW
That is what it takes. Guts to defend your country and not electing a lawyer from USA to be president, to make NATO-like gutless army and cry on TV “ooohh America, please heeeelp!”

[Rinnwald]

General “Buck” Turgidson: Mr. President, if I may speak freely, the Russkie talks big, but frankly, we think he’s short of know how. I mean, you just can’t expect a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys. And that’s not meant as an insult, Mr. Ambassador, I mean, you take your average Russkie, we all know how much guts he’s got. Hell, lookit at all them the Nazis killed off and they still wouldn’t quit.

[David1]

Really? How many Abrams did Georgia have? How many F-15s and F-16s did Georgia have?

[denydenydeny]

So, if I understand you correctly, the valiant Russians, fighting against overwhelming odds, defeated the Georgian bullies.

You’re hilarious. Keep it up, I need the entertainment.

[kronos77]

Russia (eleven time zones wide) attacks tiny Georgia.

Naked aggression by a Stalinist regime.

Eta vsyo. Ty ponimayesh seichas?

---

USA and NATO, most advanced and powerfull nations in the world.. NINETEEN of them attacking small Serbia in 1999.

Eta vsyo. Ty ponimayesh seichas?

[Joe 6-pack]

If Afghanistan was, "Russia's Viet Nam," it just might turn out that Georgia was "Russia's Grenada."

I've long been willing to point out the differences between Viet Nam and Afghanistan, and I don't consider them exact parallels; however, there were undeniably some similarities. In Grenada, our military, rebuilding after Viet Nam, Operation Eagle Claw and the Carter Administration, achieved a quick victory which yielded lessons way out of proportion to the small investment in casualties and materiel. The development of the SINCGARS radio, the establishment of SOCOM and many other doctrinal and organizational tweaking were all results, at least in part, Of Operation Just Cause. While it remains to be seen, I would hate to think the Russians might realize similar benefits of their own from operations in Georgia.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Hey Comrade, the only reason the Soviets won the ‘Great Patriotic War’ was because of tons of lend lease from the U.S. and the West that was never paid for

It, in part, allowed them to bleed the Germans. In Overy's "Russia's War", he estimated the Soviets, on average, suffered over 2000 casualties a day from Barbarossa's first day to the fall of Berlin. Quite the butcher's bill.

Of course, the Soviet system was entirely without mercy to it's own as well, executing over 150,000 soldiers during the war's first two years alone.

[mkjessup]

Defeating the Germans in WWII? That's a pretty big deal. Other than Afghanistan, I can't actually think of any war they fought in during the interim.

The Soviets beat back a damn near successful German invasion, and only because Stalin began invoking the Russian people to fight for 'Mother Russia', not for Communism, not for Lenin, not for Marx & Engels. And by the time the Soviets had the Germans in full retreat, Germany was all but pulverized by allied air power courtesy of the United States Army Air Corps and the Royal Air Force. The Soviets were able to prevail in World War II due in no small part to strategic mistakes made by Hitler (one major error, treating the Russian peasants like animals instead of human beings, many Russians welcomed the initial Nazi invaders as LIBERATORS from Stalin and Communism). But once it became clear that the Nazis were no better than Communists, the average Russian understood that they had no friend(s) in Berlin or anywhere in Germany, and they fought hard and long to turn back the invasion.

Now to fast forward to Afghanistan, the record of Soviet failure there is clear. Most Soviet successes during the Cold War came about due to Moscow fighting the West via client states like North Korea, North Vietnam, Cuba, etc., and the continued existence of Communist regimes in those nations are proof of that, at least in those instances.

As for Patton and the Jews? It is quite frankly irrelevant to this thread, which is about RUSSIANS, a topic upon which Patton was extremely well educated and informed.

[kronos77]

Switch back to recruit Army, leaving only elite units professional.

The military has no interest in this, and rightfully so. The age of large conscript armies has passed.

---

Not true.
We Serbs hade conscript army and we withstood NATO arial campaign for 78 (seventy eight) days and withdrew from Kosovo only after orders from Belgrade.
At the time we hade 150,000 soldiers in Kosovo alone.
georgians hade 13,000 in Ossetia attack....

[David1]

How many Russian jets were used against Georgia? How many Russian supplied jets did the Georgians use? Think about it.

[Cementjungle]

...Kremlin's Aging Army...

[kronos77]

I dont believe that Russia have Abramses or F-16s...
LOL.
Now,
It is NATO fault. Georgia wanted to by 3-4 fighter squadrons, but NATO said “You dont need them”

Same situation is in Macedonia. They sade Su-25s and Mi-24s, and NATO and US instructors made them scrap their Airforce! Ant 80% of their tanks!
Horror.

[Citizen Blade]

So, if I understand you correctly, the valiant Russians, fighting against overwhelming odds, defeated the Georgian bullies.

Yeah, that is certainly a... novel.. interpretation.

But the Georgians could have done better if they had organized their military around light infantry equipped with anti-tanks weapons. The country is made for hitting armored forces from the hills. This strategy also dovetails into the media war. Chop up an isolated Russian armored column and slaughter a bunch of Russian reservists in a supply column. Get the video uploaded. Change the narrative.

It's a shame the Georgians couldn't have made this more bloody for Uncle Vlad, or provoked him into bloody over-reaction.