Getting Out is Not Enough/ Education, We Must Redefine It!

http://educationconversation.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/getting-out-is-not-enough/ ^ | Tammy Drennan

[wintertime]

We must be willing to redefine education. What education looks like now is an artificial construct. It was not created by people who knew or understood children or teens. It was created by bureaucrats and special interests who wanted to control children and teens.

I talked with a young lady the other day – 14-years-old – who loves horses and aims to own stables and teach riding, among other things. She’s been working with horses since she was five. She’s good enough now that she “breaks” new ones and retrains ones facing changes in the use they’re being put to. She knows her stuff.

(snip)

Then there’s her other life – public school. She failed her end-of-year math exam by three points, so she’s going to summer school. She’ll have to pass the test to move on to the next grade. I’ve talked with her. She’s smart and highly competent – just not especially interested in algebra. She’s more accomplished than many adults (even ones who did pass algebra). But she has four more years of school to go, during which time she’ll have to pass endless tests and divert her efforts from what she knows she’ll devote her life to.

(snip) I get many calls a month from parents of teens who simply haven’t managed to fit into the school mold. They’re smart kids, often kids with serious interests they’re prevented from pursuing because so many adults in their lives are running them through the testing/counseling/therapy wringer.

(snip)

In order to redefine education, we will have to engage in some self-liberation, for most of us have a very hard time letting go (I mean really letting go) of the idea that the state knows some secret about education that we don’t and that if we defy their model we just might be sorry.

(snip)

[Tired of Taxes]

I don’t know if this is still the case, but it used to be, in England you could legally leave school at age 14-1/2 if you had an apprenticeship. That has always made sense to me.

I was there as an exchange student in the early eighties. You're right: At the time, students finished secondary school by age 14-15. By age 16, they started trade school or university. The problem was, they weren't given a second chance if they didn't do well enough in secondary school. That was the impression I was given, anyway. Whether they went to trade school or university depended upon their performance in secondary school, whereas we Americans could opt for the community college route and transfer to a four-year afterward.

That old English school system may have changed now; I don't know. Today's English schools are having the same problems we're having, if not more so.

[wintertime]

JenB,

I your opinion what percentage of the population is capable of learning and passing algebra?

I am thinking of the many people liberal arts majors in my college who barely passed the most rudimentary required math courses for arts majors. These liberal arts majors are **college** students, and a goodly percentage do go on to earn degrees. If they struggle, then what percentage should be a realistic expectation for the general population?

Realistically, what percentage of the population is even capable of learning algebra?

[Marie]

I reminded him that when he was a teen he was allowed to be useful.

My 14 year old son gripes a bit about mowing, taking out the garbage, furring out a wall for me, moving rocks, etc. But when I have a lot of work for him, I see a change in his general behavior. He has pride. He carries himself differently and is a calmer, happier young man. He is really frustrated by having to wait to get a "real" job and spends time nagging the neighbors for work. My daughter is also frustrated and has become a full-time volunteer for our FRG to burn off energy and give herself a purpose. She'll start working full-time next summer.

It's a basic human need to feel necessary and useful in this world and when we don't have that, life has no purpose.

[verga]

Parents should be doing the pushing, **not** a government with a gun.

Still waiting on you to document this, just like I have been waiting for a month now.

You know what they say, if you can't prove it it must not be true.

[wintertime]

You honestly expect us to believe that your son received an offer to work at a bank at age 15. I was born at night , but not last night.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are asking me if I am a liar?

Yes, he **did** receive an offer for an entry level management position for a local bank. He **was** 15. The bank management assumed he was older since he was a college student attending a his college’s job fair.

My son declined the offer. When they called our home to offer him an interview, he thanked them but told them he was 15, and that his mom would not be able to drive him to work every day.

[Tired of Taxes]

As an employer, I would like to see a private company issue a certified transcript that a person was literate, and could speak and write English, to a certain grade level, and abandon having to rely on seeing community college on the resume.

I see now. You're saying the high school diploma isn't a reliable enough indicator. I'd like to see private companies offer testing, too. It would give us homeschoolers yet another option.

[wintertime]

Please do a Google on the words: Truant and police.

This very simple exercise will prove to you and other rational Freepers that there are thousands upon thousands of examples of police (with load pistols on the hip) enforcing the government school will.

[JenB]

Algebra? No idea. I learned it at 11. I’d think at least anyone with an average IQ should be able to manage basic algebra. I mean, if you can handle fractions you can handle basic algebra concepts. Algebra is hardly esoteric knowledge. It doesn’t even require a calculator.

[Gabz]

There are children by the millions stuck in government schools who are just as bright and similarly talented as my son,..but...these institutionalized children are artificially held back merely to serve as widgets in providing jobs to government employees in the education-industrial-complex.

That is your personal opinion. It is not a fact.

My oldest niece was inline to be promoted to store manager of the retail shop where she worked, until the home office realized she was only 16 and they could not, by law, place her in that position.

My niece attended public school. She also had her HS diploma 2 weeks after her 16th b'day, a BS by 20 (she took off 2 years to earn money for school) and her master's at 23.

My personal experiences are just as valid as yours.

BTW, we moved from Delaware to Virginia because the schools in Delaware are, for the most part, sub par. Yet my niece seemed to make out quite well, as did her younger sister who is getting married next week.

[T-Bird45]

“As an employer, I would like to see a private company issue a certified transcript that a person was literate, and could speak and write English, to a certain grade level, and abandon having to rely on seeing community college on the resume.”

---

I would recommend that you consider the link below as the solution to your need. Many states are now using this in their workforce/unemployment offices to validate the skills of potential employees before sending them out for interviews. In my state (OK), the vocational schools are using this to create a Career Readiness Certificate so employers can validate student competence levels in three areas: Reading for Information, Locating Information, and Applied Math.

http://www.act.org/workkeys/

It is also possible for employers to confirm the skills needed to be successful in particular positions by using the Job Analysis tool. This service may be available to you through the workforce/unemployment office.

[wintertime]

I see now. You're saying the high school diploma isn't a reliable enough indicator. I'd like to see private companies offer testing, too. It would give us homeschoolers yet another option.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes it would!

The SAT and ACT have value but they do not show that the child has actually mastered and passed the tests for...hm?....8th grade geography. A government school transcript is absolutely not guarantee that that has happened. The only thing a government school transcript shows is attendance.

Yes, I could, perhaps, have an job applicant with a decent SAT score but they could still be an idiot and not know much.

Private tests per grade or subject, or a privately administered GED-type test could prove to colleges that students were academically ready for college. Private testing could make them eligible for government and private post high school training and college scholarships.

In my state, the teachers union **vigorously** fights any reduction in the age for taking the GED. If the legislatures allowed anyone of any age to take the GED there would be **massive** hemorrhage of students from the government schools. ( Which proves that the education-industrial-complex is **not** about educating children. It is about JOBS for the 5 million employees working the system.)

[wintertime]

I see now. You’re saying the high school diploma isn’t a reliable enough indicator. I’d like to see private companies offer testing, too. It would give us homeschoolers yet another option.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes it would!

The SAT and ACT have value but they do not show that the child has actually mastered and passed the tests for...hm?....8th grade geography. A government school transcript is absolutely not guarantee that that has happened. The only thing a government school transcript shows is attendance.

Yes, I could, perhaps, have an job applicant with a decent SAT score but they could still be an idiot and not know much.

Private tests per grade or subject, or a privately administered GED-type test could prove to colleges that students were academically ready for college. Private testing could make them eligible for government and private post high school training and college scholarships.

In my state, the teachers union **vigorously** fights any reduction in the age for taking the GED. If the legislatures allowed anyone of any age to take the GED there would be **massive** hemorrhage of students from the government schools. ( Which proves that the education-industrial-complex is **not** about educating children. It is about JOBS for the 5 million employees working the system.)

[Man50D]

It was created by bureaucrats and special interests socialists who wanted to control children and teens.

[Amelia]

I’d think at least anyone with an average IQ should be able to manage basic algebra.

In my state, it's required for graduation.

Of course, my father said it was required for graduation in his school 50+ years ago, too...

[Amelia]

CLEP is written by the same folks who handle AP's and SAT's.

I would suspect that a homeschooler who was able to do well on CLEP and the ACT/SAT would be accepted by many, if not most, colleges regardless of age, wouldn't you think?

It seems like every year or so we hear of some child being accepted into college at 10 or 11. The colleges must have some way of judging the skills of those children.

[MrB]

Correct me if I’m wrong,

but the track records for the ACT and SAT have been very good

in predicting the success of those entering college. At least before the era of test tutors and practice tests... ie, when I took it.

[SnakeDoctor]

One of the best quotations I ever read on the subject of sex education was from the Pope (and I’m not even Catholic) ...

“We witness an assumption that every experience is of equal worth and a reluctance to admit imperfection and mistakes. And particularly disturbing is the reduction of the precious and delicate area of education in sexuality to management of risk, bereft of any reference to conjugal love.” — Pop Benedict XVI

That about sums it up for me.

H

[MrB]

He’s describing the left to a ‘T’.

Liberals subsidize failing (irresponsible) behaviors at the expense of successful (responsible) people, because to do otherwise would be to “judge” the irresponsible behavior with the punishment of consequences.

And the ONE and ONLY area where libs support individual rights is consequence free sexual behavior choices.

[SoftballMominVA]

It seems like every year or so we hear of some child being accepted into college at 10 or 11...

Interesting point . . . how do all these child phenoms get into college before the age of 12, yet millions of others are 'trapped' in a system they can't escape?

[wintertime]

I would suspect that a homeschooler who was able to do well on CLEP and the ACT/SAT would be accepted by many, if not most, colleges regardless of age, wouldn't you think?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I did **not** discuss acceptance in college. My comments were entirely confined to eligibility for government and private scholarships ( and loans.) I am assuming that you were rushed when you read my posts. I know that your reading skills are excellent and I know that you would not deliberately create a strawman.

Also,....Getting a child accepted to college at the ages of 13, 12, and 13 would be **greatly** facilitated if they had better testing. Please believe me. I have had some experience with this. Great SAT scores at the age of 13 is no guarantee of acceptance in college. The SAT and ACT are not sufficiently comprehensive enough. For instance, the SAT will not show if that child has a grasp of 7th grade history, for instance.