Getting Out is Not Enough/ Education, We Must Redefine It!

We must be willing to redefine education. What education looks like now is an artificial construct. It was not created by people who knew or understood children or teens. It was created by bureaucrats and special interests who wanted to control children and teens.

I talked with a young lady the other day – 14-years-old – who loves horses and aims to own stables and teach riding, among other things. She’s been working with horses since she was five. She’s good enough now that she “breaks” new ones and retrains ones facing changes in the use they’re being put to. She knows her stuff.

Then there’s her other life – public school. She failed her end-of-year math exam by three points, so she’s going to summer school. She’ll have to pass the test to move on to the next grade. I’ve talked with her. She’s smart and highly competent – just not especially interested in algebra. She’s more accomplished than many adults (even ones who did pass algebra). But she has four more years of school to go, during which time she’ll have to pass endless tests and divert her efforts from what she knows she’ll devote her life to.

(snip) I get many calls a month from parents of teens who simply haven’t managed to fit into the school mold. They’re smart kids, often kids with serious interests they’re prevented from pursuing because so many adults in their lives are running them through the testing/counseling/therapy wringer.

In order to redefine education, we will have to engage in some self-liberation, for most of us have a very hard time letting go (I mean really letting go) of the idea that the state knows some secret about education that we don’t and that if we defy their model we just might be sorry.

LOL! You really are clueless.

I don’t hate anyone/any community. I do hate the victim mentality that has overtaken our country. I do hate whole sections of our country whining about this or that, rather than overcoming the obstacles, as most have had to do, and working to succeed.

Unlike you, I see tons wrong with *hyphenated Americans*.

We obviously have a different opinion on the black experience. I see no racism or discrimination towards blacks today (and yes, slavery was wrong, jim crow laws were wrong - the former has been over for 145 years and tons of blood was shed to make it so. The latter has been over for decades. Time to get over it, imo.). The Immigrants suffered and their suffering wasn’t all that different than the blacks. Of course, it’s not the SAME, as nothing is the SAME. It’s similar. Difference is, those who were discriminated against, the immigrants, rose above it and succeeded. They didn’t whine about it all.

I’m making money off the public school system? That’s news to me. Let me know when I get the actual dollars. Gosh, you really are clueless.

Heh, I live in NJ (the DEAR was cute, sorta like the other passive-aggressive crap in your post). Talking to me about property taxes is preaching to the choir.

Oh, so your husband is black, so this means what exactly? Shall I post what my husband’s race is? Will that make a difference? You seem to think that because your husband is black that it should make a difference to me or somehow aid in your reasoning. All it says to me is you’re husband is black, big freakin’ deal. If you’re husband was a Muslim who practiced Islam, should that make me view Islam and Muslims differently or give any more credibility to your words?

To any and all black Americans out there, take a good look at what’s teaching your kids in public school.

Yeah, all conservatives would be appalled that a conservative is a teacher. Hmm. Yeah, a pro life, pro military, small gov’t., secure the borders, most importantly, pro 2nd Amendment teacher is appalling. They should take notice and demand my ass on a silver platter. I mean, come on, how dare I not allow excuses to interfere with their education and their responsibility and accountability when it comes to their education and their life? I should just be like all the other liberals and fake conservatives out there. RME.

Generally the public schools in wealthy communities are successful academically, and aren't the ones people speak of when they speak of public schools failing.

I can't speak for other people, but most homeschoolers I've met oppose the public school system everywhere. Whether or not a school is successful academically makes no difference to me. What I (and many other homeschoolers, private schoolers, etc.) oppose are (1) the state and the schools overstepping parental rights, (2) the hefty school taxes, (3) forcing us to pay for an agenda we oppose, and (4) public schools driving private and parochial schools out of business.

In my opinion, a revolution in education shouldn't begin in the poor communities. Like everything else, it should start with the wealthy and the middle class. Those higher-income townships should lead the way by moving toward a free-market model of the education system. Once it's established in wealthier and middle-class communities, then the lower-income and impoverished communities might benefit by employing the same ideas.

You may be thinking, There's no way a wealthy or middle class community would want to move to a free market model of education if their public school system is producing good results. But, as school taxes rise, there are demands for school spending cuts. My own township is a good example (hence my screenname). Homeowners here consistently vote against increasing the school budget. School spending increases have been knocked down in many townships in my state because the property owners turned out in such large numbers to vote against them.

Thomas Jefferson stated that without an educated populace, our system of government could not survive, and he was in favor of public schools. Being in favor of public education is not necessarily a liberal position, unless you consider Thomas Jefferson to be a liberal.

First, Jefferson himself isn't here to have the discussion with us. Secondly, his ideas for publicly funded schools were far more limited than the grandiose system we have today.

Twink, I just did a google search on your screenname. You might want to change it. Seriously.

Keep posting, btw. I want people to see the obnoxious, bigoted, and unintelligent remarks a New Jersey schoolteacher is making. (I guess I shouldn't be surprised.)

Once again, I'll try to explain it. I'll type slowly this time so you might understand:

Verga mentioned race FIRST. I responded politely.

Then YOU jumped in and brought up race. You brought up your own race. (Did I need to know you're Italian/Irish?)

YOU whined, "the (black) community sucked it up and is playing it for everything’s it’s worth. It’s so much easier than actually working and succeeding. What other community gets what the black community gets? Call me a racist, I don’t give a f. I’m tired of all the whining by so called minorities, be them black or hispanic or women. Suck it up and get the hell over it like the rest of us have to.

I only responded. Go back and read my post slowly this time. Pointing out that my husband who is black is paying high taxes to send mostly white kids to school is perfectly relevant in response to your post. If you can't understand why, I don't know how you landed a teaching position. Lord knows, I hope you're not trying to teach anything important to anyone.

I could care less where you stand on the other issues. You really are not in favor of small government unless you want to break down the public school monopoly. I'm not sure how, in your mind, someone calling for complete privatization of education is a liberal. I suggest you brush-up on the definitions of liberal and conservative.

In case anyone decides to bother the moderator with this discussion again, I'd like to point out to the moderator that I am only responding in kind to the obnoxious post to me.

LMAO. Yeah, the screen name seems to be an issue for some. Apparently, it’s some homo reference but given I ain’t a homo, it’s not really an issue for me :) Funny, other than you and another homeschooler, the few other references to the screen name have been positive or helpful. You and the other homeschooler were the only ones to make it a negative thing. Should I read something into that? Why should I change it? Should I change my screenname, the name I chose from a childhood pet name, because it has a connotation that makes some uncomfortable, like you? LMAO.

After this post (take a look Eaker), I think I’ll keep it :) It makes silly people show themselves :)

You googled. Good for you. Is that something new for you, something you just learned? RME and if I roll them anymore they’d roll right out of my head.

Shall I ping the moderator, you know, cause you called me obnoxious, bigoted blah blah blah? I mean, you whined about your post being deleted, should I whine about this one? You got the whining thing going good.

I guess you shouldn’t be surprised since apparently you got that whining thing going on well. You can’t discuss things without personal attacks. Nice. Seems to me you can’t discuss this topic without all the emotional crap.

LOL. Yes, type slowly. That should help my comprehension, rme. Cracks me up, you people (yes you people and it has no racial connotation, imagine that) that use this as an aruging point.

Heh. I don’t need to read Verga’s posts again. He/she makes sense. You don’t.

I’m done with you as you are really too stupid to have a serious discussion. Keep googling, that should work well rme. Heh, it really was the comment about my screenname that proved just how silly you are.LOL!

Gee, Twink, I was trying to give you some helpful advice. How was I to know it was your childhood nickname, for crying out loud? I never heard the term before.

You started this exchange. You jumped right in and felt free to make those remarks. My post was decent and polite, and you responded in an obnoxious way. If you’re going to dish it out, you have to be able to take it.

I see you pinged someone else to the discussion. I may be away from the computer for a day or so. If your friend jumps into the discussion, I will address any comments when I return.

But my position falls on the conservative side of this issue, and it’s right in line with the purpose of this forum.

Childhood pet name. :) Save the advice.

I never heard the term before either. But you needed to google it and make a comment about it...duh. I’m computer illiterate but I’m far from stupid, Tired of Taxes. Nice save.

I was obnoxious? Is that the new word for honest? I have no sympathy or empathy for the whiners, those wallowing in the victim mentality so prevalent today. I really don’t give a damn about anyone’s racial make up or hyphenated crap. You seem to be the one with the racial issue here. IMO of course. But I have been called obnoxious so there’s that.

I can take it, that’s not in question here. You’re the one whining to the mods about posts.

Heh, I pinged Eaker, because of the screenname thing. Nothing else. The screenname has been an issue for some and we talked about it, so I pinged him :) I thought he’d find the exchange funny (about the name). Thus, I pinged him. It was “here we go again with the screenname thing” and nothing else.

only 79 were from the Schools in Need of Improvement (SINI) -
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would expect that the parents in these school districts were unaware of the new voucher program. Ohio, and other states, have had a similar response in the **first** year of their voucher programs. This was completely turned around once parents learn of the program and how to work the system .

The vouchers were for **existing** private schools.

So...If the government is running a priced-fixed monopoly do you think that this would encourage the building of private schools conveniently located where the poor live? I don't think so. And...there would be fewer private schools built that were conveniently located in poor areas.

Private schools are like boutique grocery stores ( Nature's Harvest comes to mind.) If we had compulsory government grocery stores and the government gave food away for free, yes, in some areas there would be boutique grocery stores to serve some special demands for religious food and other specialties. Most of these private grocery stores would be located where the middle and upper classes ( who have the money) could conveniently reach them.

The same is true for price-fixed government schools and private schools.

I have a suggestion. Completely lift the cap on charter schools and see what happens. While they are still considered government schools they do allow more choice for parents and could provide the structure that could eventually lead to switching to tax credits and vouchers.

Also, why do the teacher unions fight voucher so vigorously if parents aren't going to use them? The answer is that within a few years private schools do spring up that are conveniently located, respect the schedules of the people living locally in the area, and resolve the transport issue.

The waiting lists for charters schools, vouchers, and tax credits are miles long. The Milton Friedman Foundation is polling parents around the nation and finding that the percentage of parents who would choose a government school is in the single digits. Home and small business owners are disgusted with their high property taxes.

Amelia, legislators will not ignore this. This type of pressure is much greater than any group of government school employees. Will the NEA hold out somewhat longer? Yes, it will, but I fully expect to live to see the government school citadel fall.

There is only one thing that would stop this onward movement to privatization of universal K-12 schooling. That is if the Democrats corrupt the ballot box and stuff the judiciary with their minions.

What I (and many other homeschoolers, private schoolers, etc.) oppose are (1) the state and the schools overstepping parental rights, (2) the hefty school taxes, (3) forcing us to pay for an agenda we oppose, and (4) public schools driving private and parochial schools out of business.

It seems to me that the first three problems might be "local control" issues...if you are living in a community in which the prevailing values are much more liberal than your own, you will have much greater problems with #1 and #3 in particular.

Down here in the "Bible belt" we don't seem to have nearly as many problems with that sort of thing as you in the urban northeast (and also some in states such as California and Oregon) do.

You state that the voters have begun the process of bringing school taxes more in line...I don't really understand how they got so high without complicity from the community and the voters. Do you not have elected representatives who set the tax rates and decide what the schools will and will not spend money on?

As far as "public schools driving private and parochial schools out of business," I'm sorry, but that is one of the most ridiculous contentions I've heard in a long time.

Private schools are still thriving in my area, and generally private and parochial schools have been created in response to perceived weaknesses in the public school system - if the public schools are doing better in your area, it must be because the general public feels they are a better value.

Parochial schools have lost some of their ability to compete because there aren't as many priests and nuns available to teach basically "for free" and so parochial schools now have to hire teachers & compete in the market for them. Also, the Catholic church doesn't seem to be subsidizing these schools as they used to, and many are located in urban areas, whereas the wealthier parishioners have moved to the suburbs. Public schools can't be blamed for that, but many Catholics may find public schools more acceptable now that the Protestant religion and Protestant Bible aren't taught in them.

First, Jefferson himself isn't here to have the discussion with us. Secondly, his ideas for publicly funded schools were far more limited than the grandiose system we have today.

Jefferson isn't here to discuss this with us, but he left many writings expressing his feelings about and goals/ideas for public education. Jefferson did feel that even a college education should be subsidized for promising students, but I think his ideas would have been closer to the current European system, whereby students are sorted according to academic aptitude.

The report was nearly 50 pages long. I will admit that I did not thoroughly study it.

Yes, it is fairly long, but I'll admit that several semesters ago I did thoroughly study it and a number of other research papers on voucher programs, hoping to be able to show that free market solutions would improve education.

The Republican Congress actually passed the Washington Opportunity Scholarship (voucher) program for the same reason - and where better to attempt such an experiment than in one of the worst systems in the nation?

What I found, and what the researchers on this program seem to have found, is that there is not a "magic bullet" that is miraculously going to transform our educational system, most reforms have unexpected consequences (sometimes positive and sometimes negative), both the right and the left have some valid points in their arguments, and the system as a whole is more complex than most people believe.

OK...So that was 4 years ago. What’s going on now?

For a short and sweet, relatively unbiased (nothing written about education seems to be totally unbiased) summary from a site which seems to be left-leaning but does include links to voucher supporters and opponents, click here.

The Washington Scholarship Fund's website links to lots of studies and press reports about the program, but also includes quite a bit of cheerleading for the program, which is understandable since without the program they are out of a job.

This is one reason that D.C. was a great area to try this experiment. It's a relatively small area, there were already a number of private schools, and there's a great public transportation system as well.

For a couple of years the voucher system seemed to be helping the struggling parochial schools remain viable, but recently the Diocese announced that it is giving 7 schools to the district to be transformed into secular charter schools.

Eleanor Holmes Norton was quite opposed to the voucher program, because she said the District was having a lot of success with charter schools, the parents liked them, and she felt that putting money into the voucher program would take money away from the burgeoning successes of the charter schools.

Also, why do the teacher unions fight voucher so vigorously if parents aren't going to use them?

I can't really speak for the unions, since I don't belong to one and they aren't too powerful in my state...I'd suspect that part might be because of the perceived job threat, and part might be because some children have parents who will not be willing or able to navigate researching & applying to private schools. Also, if you'll notice, many of the private schools in D.C. wouldn't accept children with learning or physical disabilities.

The waiting lists for charters schools, vouchers, and tax credits are miles long.

Source?

The Milton Friedman Foundation is polling parents around the nation and finding that the percentage of parents who would choose a government school is in the single digits.

No offense, but I suspect those polls are about as unbiased as the NEA polls showing that most parents are satisfied with their local public schools.

Home and small business owners are disgusted with their high property taxes.

More so in some places than others, and a larger percentage goes for educational expenses in some places than others, but it is an election year...

Will the NEA hold out somewhat longer? Yes, it will, but I fully expect to live to see the government school citadel fall.

I expect to see the NEA fall before I would expect to see the abolition of public schools.

“Six *bushes* of habaneros, not six bushels! We’ll be able to pick one next week, probably. I can make enchiladas with Really Hot Sauce and take them to church next Sunday. The Spanish congregation has a dinner after Mass.”

Ok..six bushes makes more sense!
LOL!
But wow, I looked up “bushels” again to refresh my memory..
That would be a LOAD of peppers..

Anoreth will, I’m sure, do well!
Which ROTC is she looking into?
My sister took sign language for part of her foreign language requirement.
It was a nice change of pace.

Is Vlad excited to join the other boys?
I would imagine!
Bill might be running for the tent~
Unless, of course, Pat (the tornado) hits the backyard. Then all bets are off.
(well..aside from the dizzy factor)

I think I would like the History of Ancient Egypt..
Matthew plays a computer game packed with random Ancient Egypt facts...
He enlightens me all the time.
He also has a few titles from Joy Masoff.
Her book “Oh Yikes” has even more (mostly gross) facts about the peoples of old.
Hmmm...perhaps I shouldn’t be getting MOST of my ongoing education from an 8 year old perspective????
LOL!

We’ve had a quiet weekend.
Yesterday was a “Zero Electronics Day”.
(we did watch “The Waltons” after dinner though)
The kids think we’re tyrants for making them play outside or with THEIR TOYS all of the time!
We’re so mean!

I hope your Independence Day was lovely!
Fireworks are banned by our local government. (the sissies)...
So, we went up to some friends to celebrate.
We purchased a small amount of explosives from the local firework’s stand.
(as do our friends)
Then, we sit in their cul-de-sac and watch their neighbors reenact the Revolutionary War using the HUGE and ILLEGAL (but so entertaining) fireworks they purchase from the Indian Reservation.
They must spend hundreds of dollars!

We had a peaceful 4th here - cooked steaks on the grill and watched the little boys splash in the baby pool. One daughter went to a friend’s house to cook out, and another went to our town parade with a neighbor. I had to be at church at noon and couldn’t take them. When I got home, the family had apparently cut up a watermelon using a chainsaw, so I spent a couple of hours cleaning the kitchen. (Sigh)

Anoreth wants Air Force ROTC. She’s going to take the placement test for the community college tomorrow, I hope. We have to take the purple car to the mechanic, because it keeps shutting off, but I can drop her at the campus in the van in the afternoon, and her dad can pick her up on the way home from week. She’ll enjoy hanging about the student center if she has free time.

One of our gerbils died yesterday, apparently from old age. I went to Anoreth’s room for another “Cycles of American Political Thought” CD, and found Jimmie, the gerbil, sitting in the cage doing nothing. Gerbils don’t do this! She sat around quietly all day, occasionally nibbling at a seed, and then just stopped breathing. Anoreth buried her out in the woods with two previous gerbils and the old cat. I like having gerbils, but they just don’t live very long; we’d had Jimmie and Becky (the survivor) about two years.

Bill said mumble mumble mumble about sleeping in a tent. Maybe Tom would like to move out, instead.

We need to have a Zero Electronics day! Some day when it’s cooler, so we can live without air conditioning!

I remember having this conversation with you before. Yes, one reason is the complicity of the voters. Another is corruption in politics here. Another reason for the high property taxes is there are too many school districts here. Essentially, my state's public schools demonstrate what happens when the public school system is taken to its ultimate destination: NJ public schools are supposedly among the best in the nation, and we spend more per pupil than any other state:

NJ Has Highest Property Taxes in U.S.

Free Republic thread on the above article

Money for Schools - New Jersey Rules

New York is another example of high property taxes:

Property Taxes Are Too High (New York)

As far as "public schools driving private and parochial schools out of business," I'm sorry, but that is one of the most ridiculous contentions I've heard in a long time.

What I'm saying is true. I don't know anything about the Bible Belt. I've always lived in the Northeast, and in this part of the country, public schools are monopolizing education. More and more parents opt for public schools because they're paying so much into the system. Catholic schools cannot compete. Yes, the other factors you mentioned (such as the lower number of nuns and clergy) are at play. But the public school system here (in NJ, PA, and NY) is driving the parochial schools out of business.

Here are some articles to back up what I'm saying:

Save the Catholic Schools (NY) SNIP: In New York, the schools are also feeling economic pressure from a public school monopoly that now has unheard-of sums of money to spend. In just the past three years, the city’s education budget has swollen by $4 billion. Teacher salaries have risen 41 percent across the board in six years, passing the $100,000 top-salary threshold for the first time. Ten years ago, the gap between the city’s top salaries for Catholic school teachers and public school teachers was around $28,000. It’s now $50,000. Catholic schools find themselves stuck on a treadmill in which they either have to raise salaries even higher — and pass the costs on to students’ families — or lose more teachers to the public schools.

Law of competition explain Catholic school closings (NY)

This is a PDF file, so it might open slowly: Playing Monopoly with Our Children's Education SNIP: As education expert Andrew Coulson has noted, “Though private schooling exists in most industrialized countries, there is only limited competition at the primary and secondary levels. The comparatively heavy burden of tuition, when compared to the ‘free’ status of tax-supported schools, greatly limits the clientele for private education.” Because the average family most likely cannot afford private schooling for their children, it is fair to conclude that no “reasonable” alternative exists and the condition for monopoly has been met.

As for the writings of Thomas Jefferson, both conservatives and progressives quote him to support their ideas. But, he opposed making education compulsory, and the system he envisioned involved education only for a few years. Even if someone could show without a doubt that Jefferson would've supported our current system 100%, the argument wouldn't work. It's just an appeal to authority.

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