Stone Of Destiny Is Fake, Claims Alex Salmond

Alex Salmond dropped a cultural bombshell yesterday when he claimed that the Stone of Destiny, one of Scotland's most famous relics, was a medieval fake.

Alex Salmond arriving at the Scottish Grand Committee in Dumfries carrying the Stone of Destiny

Scottish, English and British monarchs have been crowned on the ancient coronation stone since the ninth century.

It spent 700 years under the chair in Westminster Abbey after it was seized in 1296 by King Edward I, and was finally returned to Scotland 12 years ago.

It has since been viewed at Edinburgh Castle by tens of thousands of people, and is regarded as a symbol of Scottish independence.

According to legend, Jacob used the ancient stone as a pillow when he dreamt of a ladder to heaven.

But Scotland's First Minister is convinced that it may be no more than a worthless lump of Perthshire sandstone.

He believes it was passed off as the real coronation stone when Edward stormed Scone Abbey in 1296.

Mr Salmond said: "If you're the abbot of Scone and the strongest and most ruthless king in Christendom is charging toward you in 1296 to steal Scotland's most sacred object and probably put you and half of your cohorts to death, do you do nothing and wait until he arrives or do you hide yourself and the stone somewhere convenient in the Perthshire hillside? I think the second myself."

He is not even convinced that the "fake" stone plundered from Scone was the same one that was returned to Scotland by Michael Forsyth, the then Tory Scottish Secretary, in 1996.

On Christmas Day 1950, the Stone of Destiny was stolen from below the coronation chair in Westminster Abbey by a group of radical nationalist students.

There have long been rumours that a Glasgow stonemason, Baillie Robert Gray, made copies of the stone when he was asked to repair it after it broke in two during the raid.

After a brief sojourn north of the border it was later handed back to British authorities and was used in the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953.

"There's no question that Bertie Gray made copies," said Mr Salmond. "It's like the Loch Ness monster, it's certainly a puzzle and a mystery which is best not definitively answered."

The First Minister revealed his views on the eve of the premiere of a Hollywood film about the theft of the stone. The film stars Robert Carlyle and Billy Boyd, and the SNP hopes the movie will help boost its campaign for independence.

Ian Hamilton, a QC who was one of the four students who stole the relic 58 years ago, said he remained convinced it was the real thing.

"Had it been a substitute for Edward to carry off it would have been produced when the king (Robert the Bruce) regained his kingdom. It wasn't," said Mr Hamilton, whose book, the Stone of Destiny, is published this week.

A spokesman for Westminster Abbey said she had always believed the stone was genuine.

According to legend, Jacob used the ancient stone as a pillow when he dreamt of a ladder to heaven.

Intriguing legend. Or is there more to it than just a legend?

The Israelites, on their way to Palestine, supposedly carried Jacob’s stone with them when they left Egypt...along with Joseph’s bones. And the stone was used in the crowning of the kings of Israel...or so the story goes.

But, if this stone meant so much to the Jews, why did they allow the Irish to end up with it? Or rather the Scots, which supposedly carried it with them from Eire when they moved into Scotland.

Anybody know the details of this legend?

Stone Of Scone

The Stone of Scone, also known as the Stone of Destiny, is seen as of huge significance to Scotland's nationhood. It was the seat on which generations of Kings of Scotland, and perhaps Kings of Dalriada before them, were crowned.

Until 1296 it was housed at Scone Abbey, where the coronations of Kings of Scotland took place: the last being of John Balliol. But Edward I of England stripped Scotland of all emblems of nationhood in 1296, and took the Stone of Destiny to a new home in Westminster Abbey. For the next 700 years it was to be housed in a specially-built coronation chair, on which Kings and Queens of England, then of Britain, were crowned.

The legend of the Stone of Destiny goes back over 3000 years. It is said that Ramses II of Egypt had a daughter called Scota. After the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, Princess Scota left Egypt and roamed the middle east for over a thousand years looking for her own promised land. Later she wandered further afield, crossing Spain en route to Ireland. Eventually, from the north coast of Ireland, she saw what she had been seeking for so long: what would later become Scotland. The Scots and the Picts, one version of the legend continues, were both the descendents of Princess Scota and her consort, Gathelos, a Prince of Scythia (part of modern Iran).

When Scota arrived in Scotland, the story continues, she had in her luggage a block of sandstone weighing 152kg. This had been used as a pillow by Jacob when he had the dream reported in Genesis about Jacob's Ladder. The Stone of Destiny, as it became known, was first located at Dunadd during the time of Dalriada, before being moved to Scone by King Kenneth I.

Until Christmas Day, 1950, the Stone of Destiny remained where it had been placed by Edward I, in Westminster Abbey. Four students from Glasgow University broke into Westminster Abbey in the early hours of the morning and removed the stone, accidentally breaking it in two as they did so. The stone was subsequently repaired by a Glasgow stonemason before being hidden in a tractor repair shed a Firemore, north of Inverasdale in Wester Ross.

But it was becoming clear that public opinion in Scotland was not as overwhelmingly in favour of the removal of the Stone of Destiny as the perpetrators had hoped. So on 11 August 1951 the Stone of Destiny was left, covered in a Saltire, at the altar in the ruins of Arbroath Abbey. It was returned to a repaired Coronation Chair in good time for the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II (who ought to be know north of the Border as Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland: the first Queen Elizabeth was not Queen of Scotland) in 1953.

On 15 November 1996, as a result of an initiative by the Conservative Prime Minister John Major, the Stone of Destiny returned to Scotland once more, this time under military escort as it crossed the River Tweed at Coldstream. In now lives alongside the Honours of Scotland in Edinburgh Castle, though it will be returned to Westminster Abbey when needed for Coronations. Many saw this as a political ploy to resurrect the Conservatives' failing support in Scotland. It didn't work: the 1997 General Election saw the Conservative Party emerge without a single Scottish seat in Parliament.

Rumours persist about the Stone of Destiny. Some say that monks at Scone Abbey switched the stone and that what Edward I took to England was not the real Stone of Destiny. Others claim that those who stole the stone on Christmas Day 1950 switched the stone, and that what was returned on April 1951 was not the original: which was instead hidden in a peat bank in Wester Ross. As with everything else to do with the Stone of Destiny, the importance of the symbolism surrounding it far outweighs the block of sandstone itself, all 152kg of it.

Funny, funny.

They're all krauts. Here's a lineage chart through 1066 for the Kings.
http://www.thejournal.org/studylibrary/timelines/english-monarchy-lineage-first-kings-of-england-large-chart.html

Here's a lineage chart from 1832.
http://www.thejournal.org/studylibrary/timelines/english-monarchy-lineage-first-kings-of-england-large-chart.html

And then there's this flap:
<Please,please, please stop referrring to the 'British monarchy' as 'English'. There hasn't been a English monarch since 1066. First there were Norman French, then Angevin French, then Welsh , the Scots, then Dutch, then German... leading us to the current lot, the Saxe-Coburg Gotha's, whoops sorry I meant 'Windsor'...

http://www.scotland.com/forums/history/19035-british-monarchy-3-print.html

I'm out of here...!

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	Gods Graves Glyphs	Thanks Blam. They should check the bottom, see if there's a little sliding door with a key inside. No one to ask who would know where the "real" stone wound up. When the Stone was heisted back in the 1950s, and finally returned some years later, it was suspected (and later claimed) that it wasn't the same stone. So, I guess the joke's on everyone who thinks they're emperor if some moistened bink lobs a scimitar at them. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
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