Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Will Judean Desert Find Shed Light On Shroud Of Turin?
Jerusalem Post ^ | 5-29-2008 | ETGAR LEFKOVITS

Posted on 06/01/2008 8:55:11 AM PDT by blam

Will Judean Desert find shed light on Shroud of Turin?

By ETGAR LEFKOVITS Updated May 29, 2008 7:28

Can a 6,000-year-old shroud uncovered in the Judean Desert in 1993 help illuminate the centuries-old debate over the Shroud of Turin?

The Shroud of Turin

Slideshow: Pictures of the week That is the question posed by Olga Negnevitsky, a conservator at the Israel Museum who was involved in the conservation of the lesser-known shroud for the Antiquities Authority after it was discovered inside a small cave near Jericho.

The idea to use the older shroud to learn more about the famous one came to Negnevitsky this week after she listened to an address on the Shroud of Turin at the International Art Conference in Jerusalem on the conservation of cultural and environmental heritage.

"If we reexamine the [Jericho] shroud with all the latest modern technology, then maybe we will find out more information that will help solve the secrets of the Shroud of Turin," Negnevitsky said Wednesday.

The finely-decorated shroud, which is 7 meters by 2 m., was found by Israeli archeologists at the entrance to what has been dubbed the Cave of the Warrior, during a search for additional Dead Sea Scrolls near Wadi el-Makkukah.

Instead of finding biblical scrolls, the archeologists stumbled on the 6,000-year-old tomb of a nobleman whose body was wrapped in an elaborate linen shroud.

The skeleton was accompanied by a long flint blade, wooden bowls, sandals of thick leather, and bows.

The shroud, like the Shroud of Turin, had signs of blood on it, likely from a wound suffered by the bandaged warrior, Negnevitsky said.

After painstaking preservation, the shroud was displayed at the American Museum of Natural History in New York in 1998 and then at the Israel Museum in 2003 before being placed in the storeroom of the Antiquities Authority in Jerusalem, she said.

The Shroud of Turin is a linen cloth, about 4.3 m. long and 90 cm. wide, that is kept in a cathedral in Turin, Italy. It bears the faint image of a blood-covered man and is believed by some to be Jesus's burial cloth.

A 1998 radiocarbon test dated the cloth from some time between 1260 and 1390 CE, ruling out any connection with Jesus.

Other studies suggested that the radiocarbon test was flawed and that the shroud was anywhere from 1,300 to 3,000 years old. Researchers at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem have said that pollen and plant images on it put its origins in Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.

Despite numerous tests carried out over the years, the Shroud of Turin, which was first documented in 1357 in Lirey, France, has remained a puzzle as debate continues over whether it is a major Christian find, a fascinating example of medieval folk art, or a fraud.

The hope is that, provided the Antiquities Authority gives the go-ahead, a comparison with the Jericho-area shroud - found relatively near where scholars believe the Shroud of Turin was discovered - will lead to a more accurate estimate of the latter shroud's age, as well as other information.

"This is another source that could shed light on the mystery of the Shroud of Turin," said Prof. Amos Notea of the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology, who is the Israel chairman of the conservation conference that brought together scholars from around the world.

"It was here the whole time, but no one connected it until now," Notea said.


TOPICS: Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: desert; godsgravesglyphs; israel; jericho; judean; medievalfake; medievalhoax; shroud; shroudofturin; sudariumofoviedo; turin; veronicaveil
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-36 last
To: afraidfortherepublic; SunkenCiv; blam; All

“Amazing to think that any piece of cloth has endured...”

6,000 years, is this the oldest piece of fabric that has been found? I seem to recall some fairly old pieces from the frozen Siberian finds, and from the Andes ancient cultures, but I thought they were only 2 to 3 thousand years old. Anyone have more precise information?


21 posted on 06/03/2008 1:01:07 AM PDT by gleeaikin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Bob J; Golden Eagle

Uh, no, it doesn't.

Matthew:

Mark:

Luke:

John:

The four Gospels are in agreement: Jesus' body was not washed and anointed before the burial because the Sabbath was rapidly approaching. There was only a very limited time to prepare the body because the men who took him down from the cross had to get ready for the holy day.

Jesus died on the cross at about the ninth hour (3PM). Sundown was about 3 hours away. Joseph of Arimathea and his helpers had just three hours to go to Pilate, seek an audience, convince him to give them the body, go buy the linen cloth, the Myrrh and Aloes, and then return to Golgotha to convince the Roman soldiers they had permission to remove the body.

They then had to pull the nails, take the body down, and carry it to the nearby tomb. They quickly placed the body in the tomb, bound the jaw closed, put some coins on the eyes to keep them closed, bound the wrists and ankles with strips of cloth to keep them from flopping, stuffed the hundred weight of spices around the body, pulled the shroud up and over the body, closed the tomb and went home, possibly all the way across town, to wash and anoint themselves in a complicated ritual purification before sun down and the start of the sabbath. That is a lot to accomplish in a mere three hours. There simply is not time enough to prepare the body properly according to Jewish custom.

The women who discovered the empty tomb were coming with aromatic spices and oils to finish the cleaning and preparation of the body, "according to Jewish custom," which had NOT been finished on Friday. It had only been started.

The trickled blood traces across the small of the back on the Shroud's image are actually disassociated serum (seen as a yellowed stain fringe around the blood stain) and blood with a very high level of bilirubin and methemoglobin, a byproduct of severe trauma. Its ability to clot had been destroyed by the bilirubin and oxidized methemoglobin. In addition, moving the body from the vertical position on the cross to the supine position on the Shroud, would allow pooled, non-clotted blood in the pleural cavity to escape from the large wound on the side.

One side effect of this high bilirubin content is that the blood remains red even after drying.

Another theory that fails when the facts of the Shroud's history are known.

While what you say about Icons and Relics is quite true, it is also quite a bit exaggerated. For example, the claim that there are enough pieces of the True Cross in churches in Europe to make several barns is untrue. An inventory which measured the dimensions of the claimed pieces of the True Shroud has shown that there is only enough material to make up about 2/3rds of the patibulum, the horizontal cross piece. Yes, there are many frauds. However, other relics are probably what they purport to be.

In such a gullible time as the middle ages, a shroud as sublime as the Shroud of Turin would not have been required. A bed sheet with red paint would have served the purpose to bring in the sous of pilgrims.

In this instance, Geoffrey de Charney, the knight in who's possession the Shroud appeared in 1352, was not a charlatan. Although Shroud debunkers in the past century have impugned him by making the assumption, because it suited their arguments, that he was a conspirator in the creation of the Shroud for profit, they totally ignore how uncharacteristic such a scam would be to his nature.

Geoffrey de Charney was the knight who was accorded the highest honors in France. He was the Standard Bearer of the King of France, chosen by King Phillip to carry his flag, to fight by the King's side in battle, and to be the King's last line of defense. De Charney was also the author of the French Code of Chivalry which established the proper conduct of knighthood throughout Europe and defined the chivalrous actions required of all knights.. especially honesty, piety, and charity.

De Charney did not profit from his ownership of the Shroud. In fact, Geoffrey built the church at Lirey to house the Shroud with his own funds, endowed it with a Rente to support the church and its Canons throughout his lifetime, and provided that the Rente would continue after his death, a provision that, 25 years later, resulted in the near bankruptcy of his family. His daughter and heir, Margaret de Charney, made a decision to finally accept donations at the chapel in Lirey to keep it going. That was only partially successful in bringing in enough money to keep the church going. She finally agreed to sell the Shroud to the Savoy family of Italy, who later became the royal family of Italy. The Savoy's owned the Shroud until it was willed to the Pope on the death of Umberto II, the exiled King of Italy, who died in 1983.

22 posted on 06/03/2008 1:15:44 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: gleeaikin
According to this, the oldest known cloth is about 9,000 years old.

Wilford, J. N., Site in Turkey Yields Oldest Cloth Ever Found. New York Times, Science Times, Tue., July 13, 1993, pp. B5, B8.

23 posted on 06/03/2008 1:21:00 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It’s obviously one of the world’s great mysteries, who if anyone is holding back continued scientific testing and analysis?


24 posted on 06/03/2008 6:39:18 AM PDT by Golden Eagle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Golden Eagle

Re: Who is blocking research?

Mostly it is the Custodian of the Shroud.


25 posted on 06/03/2008 10:07:21 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker

That’s too bad, but being a sacred relic that brings great attention to them, I can understand why. Hopefully one day we’ll finally learn its true history, thanks again for sharing your expertise on the matter.


26 posted on 06/03/2008 7:35:50 PM PDT by Golden Eagle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker

They don’t say it wasn’t washed, they don’t say anything at all. But it doesn’t make sense that they would wrap the body in fine expensive linen without at least wiping the body down, which would take all of ten minutes with a sponge and water. Othwerwise the linen would have been spoiled and need to be replaced after annointing.


27 posted on 06/04/2008 12:16:55 AM PDT by Bob J
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Bob J

The proper preparation of a body under Jewish custom was a time consuming and involved task. The body had to be in the tomb before sundown. Washing the body would have necessitated fetching and carrying water from the community well to either Golgotha or to the tomb. The few who did this were already carrying 100 lbs of spices, the linens for the burial, and then the body.

The point is that you are assuming something as being scriptural that isn't. There are many who believe that the washing and anointing of the body is in the Bible and use it as a reason the Shroud could not be that of Jesus. That is a confabulation.

Your claim that "they don't say anything at all," is wrong on the face of it because they do. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and John indicate that there was time pressure to do what they did as quickly as possible because it was the Day of Preparation. They say they merely wrapped the body in Linen with the spices, rolled the stone in front of the access and went away. Nothing was said about completing the rituals.

Luke adds to the story that the women prepared aromatic oils after the body was laid in the tomb... before the start of the sabbath at sundown... which limits the time even more as no work, including "preparing aromatic oils," can be done on the sabbath. The women had time to acquire the oils, walk home, and prepare them, all after the tomb was closed and before sundown. Luke recounts how the women were going to anoint the body with their prepared oils on Sunday morning and were concerned with who would help them roll the stone away so they could get in.

Again you are inserting into the gospels things that are not there.

It does make sense when you know that for Jews, especially Jews of the time, that "Life was in the blood." Custom ruled that in the event of a traumatic death, where blood was released, anything with the blood of the victim on it that could be retrieved was to be buried with the victim. According to custom, the victim of a violent death with blood on his body would not be washed. That is why in the Movie "The Passion of the Christ," immediately after the crucifixion and the removal of the body, Mary is collecting the dirt below the cross into a bowl. The soiled shroud would have not been an issue as the soiling came from the blood of the victim and would have had to stay with the body.

Science and scholarship are not going to prove that the Shroud of Turin is the shroud that covered the dead body of Jesus of Nazareth. They can only prove that something is not in agreement with the known facts of crucifixion, that crucifixion in particular and the known body of knowledge practices and customs about it. So far, except for the 1988 Carbon 14 dating which has now been itself invalidated, science and scholarship have not falsified the Shroud.

28 posted on 06/04/2008 10:04:30 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Happy Easter, Swordmaker, I came across this while looking for other things.

"It does make sense when you know that for Jews, especially Jews of the time, that "Life was in the blood." Custom ruled that in the event of a traumatic death, where blood was released, anything with the blood of the victim on it that could be retrieved was to be buried with the victim. According to custom, the victim of a violent death with blood on his body would not be washed. That is why in the Movie "The Passion of the Christ," immediately after the crucifixion and the removal of the body, Mary is collecting the dirt below the cross into a bowl. The soiled shroud would have not been an issue as the soiling came from the blood of the victim and would have had to stay with the body."

Can you give more details on the burial customs re: blood?

That's the first I've heard of such.

Cheers!

...oh, and Happy Easter.

29 posted on 04/12/2009 10:07:57 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; albee; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annalex; annyokie; ...
The Shroud of Jericho may shed light on the Shroud of Turin... PING!

If you want on or off the Shroud of Turin Ping List, Freepmail me.


30 posted on 04/12/2009 1:17:09 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Citizen Tom Paine; blam
History Note: The lady who founded/funded the Textile Museum lived in Seymour, Indiana ~ a place I've mentioned many times before.

There's a branch of the Rockefeller family that's pretty much always lived in "Flatrock".

31 posted on 04/12/2009 1:29:08 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
The floral and botanical evidence from pollen grains (scientific evidence) has placed the shroud in the Near East:
"Hundreds of images of plant parts, such as flowers, flowering buds, fruits, stems, and leaves were found on high-grade photographs made from negatives by Enrie of 1931. These photographs were enlarged to life size and many were photographically enhanced to show these faint images more clearly. These images are mainly clustered around the head area but also extend down the sides of the upper body and onto the abdomen. They were observed initially by Dr. A. and Mrs. M. Whanger, and were confirmed more recently by me. While the images are of slightly wilted flowers rather tightly clustered together, many of them are quite identifiable even though they are faint, partial, and of low contrast. Experimental studies with corona discharge by physicist O. Scheuermann produced images from flowers similar to the images found on the Shroud. Nearly thirty species have been identified visually from the Shroud images. This correlates significantly with the studies by forensic microscopist Dr. Max Frei, who took sticky tape samples from the Shroud in 1973 and 1978. He found many pollen grains on these tapes, and tentatively identified some fifty-eight genera or species, mostly from plants growing in the Near East. Gundelia tournefortii L., a thorn, is one of the plants whose images I identified near the anatomical right side of the head image. Dr. Uri Baruch, palynologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority who made his M.SC. and Ph.D. dissertations on the flora of Israel, analyzed most of Frei's 1973 sticky tape pollen specimens and ten of the twenty-five 1978 sticky tapes. He examined 165 pollen grains, of which 45 (27.3%) were Gundelia tournefortii. The images of the plant and the presence of so many of its pollen grains on the Shroud prove that blooming plants were placed on the Shroud, as the pollen grains could not have been deposited by wind. G. tournefortii blooms in Israel from February (in the semi-desert warm parts) to May (in Jerusalem), hence testifying the time these plants could have been placed on the Shroud. G. tournefortii grows only in the Near East; therefore, the Shroud could have come only from the Near East.

Images of Zygophyllum dumosum Boiss, an endemic plant of Israel, Jordan, and Sinai, do not need any verification of pollen grains, although they are present in Frei's list. Two kinds of leaf images as well as flower images of this plant were identified on the Shroud. The unique leaf pattern development, visible on the Shroud, will be illustrated. Other species of Zygophyllum do not have this morphology. These plant images are observed on both the Enrie (1931), Miller (1978), Pia (1898) photographs, and I saw the large leaf with my own eyes armed with binoculars when visiting Turin June 5, 1998. All these indicate that the Zygophyllum images are not photographic artifacts. The northernmost place on earth where this plant could have been collected fresh is 15-30 km between the Sea Level sign on the road to Jericho and the Jordan River.

The authenticity of the Near East as the source of the Shroud of Turin is completely verified to me as a botanist through the images and pollen grains of Gundelia tournefortii and the images of Zygophyllum dumosum leaves. Other important botanical findings, such as the images of some 200 fruits of two-three species of Pistacia and the reed Arundo donax, will be described and illustrated by photographs. Using my data base of more than 90,000 sites of plant distribution, the place that best fits the assemblage of the plant species whose images and often pollen grains have been identified on the Shroud is 10-20 km east and west of Jerusalem. The common blooming time of most of these species is spring = March and April."
- THE ORIGIN OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN FROM THE NEAR EAST AS EVIDENCED BY PLANT IMAGES AND BY POLLEN GRAINS: http://www.shroud.com/danin2.htm


32 posted on 04/12/2009 2:41:52 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; Swordmaker
Thanks HMBA. Note: this topic is from June 2008.
33 posted on 04/12/2009 3:35:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; blam

Interesting ~ by examining pollen and blooms it appears possible the very day the photo was snapped can be computed INDEPENDENTLY of calendric history.


34 posted on 04/12/2009 3:39:16 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Bob J

This is one of the worst hit-and-run comments on a SOT thread ever seen. If there is a worse “I’m against worshipping icons; you guys are idiots” comment, then I don’t know when....

Buddy, do a little reading on the subject.


35 posted on 04/12/2009 6:55:15 PM PDT by Nabber
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping!


36 posted on 04/12/2009 9:21:07 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-36 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson