Posted on 05/26/2008 5:13:56 AM PDT by Flavius
ASHINGTON: As Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.
As an Army sniper, Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles that most soldiers carry.
"Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice," says Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. "It just has more stopping power
(Excerpt) Read more at iht.com ...
I'd prefer a shotgun over an M4 inside a building, plus a .30 cal in at least one buddy's hand to deal with somebody firing from behind what he thinks is cover
If a guy is shooting surplus ammo, though, you are right, corrosive salts can be a problem and require a little different technique to adequately clean the firearm.
You would prefer the 20 if you're shooting prone. Otherwise you would have to stick you're head up higher, which is a bad thing if people are shooting back
Perhaps the writer should carry 300 rounds of each for a day and then get back to us on which he prefers.
I personally prefer the 308 over the 223 but I have treated 223 wounds. When they hit flesh, the are definately more than mosquito killer. They produce a high energy wound crushing and destroying a fist sized piece of flesh. Lots of blood loss and nasty to treat.
A single 223 wound is a life altering event. I think proper weapons training is much more important than specific bullet selection. Of course, that being said, I have three 308 weapons for protection of the premisis but no weapon that fires a 223.
7.62 NATO isn’t the same as .308 Winchester. The winchester cartridge is more powerful and isn’t recommended for surplus rifles
For stopping power the .308 is superior to the .223. Its just a fact. Only problem is length of the weapon in an urban environement. But that is problem that cab be solved.
The only problems I know of with shooting .308 in a surplus rifle came when someone I know got the bright idea to try some 'light' loads with powder salvaged from some IMI blanks because he thought it looked like BLC-2.
He lucked out, with only minor injuries, and the local Hunter Safety Class got the rifle (actually, what was left of it) as an object example of what NOT to do at a reloading bench.
I could have kicked him, and he knew better, too.
The .308 Winchester’s maximum average pressure is 62,000 psi! Notice this is maximum average. Differentmanufacturers products may, or may not reach this pressure, however, they are still within manufacturing specifications if they do.>/p>
In terms of pressure, there is a wide (very wide) gap between the 7.62 NATO and the .308 Winchester. Here at Surplusrifle.com, we recommend in the strongest possible terms that you do not fire factory .308 Winchester ammunition in any Mil-Surp rifle chambered for the 7.62 NATO round. http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp
A .223 splits up and tumbles inside a body, causing massive wounding; a .308 would go through a body with little to no deviation.
The 5.56 and 7.62 are standardized by NATO, so that if somebody is low on ammunition, an ally can replenish some of their stock while the country low on ammo waits for their own shipments.
At least that’s what I’ve read here on FR.
:)
I can't speak to what the Army is turning out in Boot these days, but I've got a buddy who's been in the Reserves since DS 1.
About 75% of his unit has spent at least one tour in Iraq with many of them anticipating going back. Now he's in Engineering, not strictly a Combart Arm mind you.
However at his monthy drill every single member of his company is spending at least half a day at the rifle range, and he says pistol practice is also mandatory with extra time making weapons go 'bang' being 'strongly encouraged'.
I've shot with the man. He knows what he's doing.
Pretty impressive for a guy who drives bulldozers and cranes for Uncle Sam.
L
Fair enough, with the shorter magazine, you can keep your head lower. It could be an acceptable trade-off. A month ago I saw something interesting - a 100-round drum for the M-16. My instructor said it works well and isn’t prone to jamming. Could be nice, since the average firefight would probably be over before you would have to execute a magazine/drum change. However, I should mention I have never been in combat, or even in a combat zone. So... I don’t have too much real-world experience in this, although I have shot probably around 2,000 rounds out of an M-16, and 40 out of an M-4 (but no one was shooting back). However, I am an armorer in my unit. Surely that counts for something! :-)
Strange? Hah!
Combat soldiers going way back recognize the refrain: we want more guns, and bigger ones.
I remember seeing the picture of a field modified aircraft used in the latter part of WWII. The thing looked like a porcupine, with all the various barrels sticking out. And I gather it was so packed with ammo that it could barely take off.
I have long hoped that the US Army would field a single shot 20 mm infantry cannon, for use in urban areas. Its primary round would be for concrete penetration. A considerably different design from this model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NxHj1R04g
I imagine a much shorter barrel and lots of new style recoil suppression.
Well, in World War II we were fighting governments. In Iraq and Afghanistan today, we are fighting terrorists/insurgents/criminals. Similarly, a SWAT team wouldn’t machine gun a house if they thought a perp was inside. Plus, our rules of engagement are a lot more restrictive now. It’s the more kindler, gentler way of waging war.
You got that right. After the First Battle of Falluja there was a 'War Crimes Investigation'. It seems there was an inordinate amount of enemy killed by single shots to the head leading certain JAG weenies to believe that executions had taken place.
Further investigation showed that the Marines involved had used the new optical sighting systems (ACOG mostly) to good effect against an enemy who rarely presented much more than their heads as targets.
By the way I learned that the guys who have ACOGS and Aimpoints are buying their own before they deploy. They're not standard issue, at least not by the Army.
On a tangent on Armed Forces Day I was privileged enough to meet several Officers and men who had recently returned from Iraq and Lurker Jr and I had an exteneded opportunity to talk with several of them.
As Lurker Jr demonstrated the proper way to field strip an M-4 ("it's just like yours, dad except this one has the 3 position switch..)in front of an amused Army Lt. I asked if they're comfortable with the issue weapons, specifically the M-4.
"They're all a trade off." was his reply. He said he LOVES the M-4 when they're clearing buildings. But he also stated that there are people in his unit with the accurized, scoped M-14 (really M1A's as they have no fully automatic capability) who are functioning as 'designated marksmen'.
To a man those guys "LOVE" that weapon.
Now you have to keep in mind that this young Lt. was standing in front of a fully up armored Humvee that sported an M-19 Grenade Launcher in a CROW's system on top.
Did I mention that this all this was happening in the parking lot of a rather upscale Country Club? You should have seen the looks on the faces of the snooty golfers walking by while my 13 year old, who was wearing as much 'battle rattle' as he could without falling over, field stripped an M-4 on the hood of the vehicle....Priceless!
The upshot of the several conversations I had with both Officers and enlisted is that by and large the M4 is 'satisfactory' as long as it's employed properly.
The only weapon they expressed dissatisfaction with was the M9. "Not enough power" and "We want .45's" was expressed unanimously.
As to 'stopping power', well shot placement is the key there. If you stick a .22 LR in someones ear, they're done and I don't care who they are.
Hit that same person in an non-vital area with a 30-06 and they're still in the fight. That's been going on forever....
My best to you and yours and to all my fellow Veterans I bid you a happy and peaceful Memorial Day.
Raise a glass or two to our brothers and sisters who are no longer with us if you please....
Regards,
L
Depends who you ask and what agency you’re talking about.
Sounds like you’ve raised your son right if he’s field-stripping an M4 at age 13.
As far as the restrictive ROE, I am referring to our military, minus our Special Operations Forces. Agencies like the CIA have a lot more freedom of movement.
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