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A Blood Libel on Our Civilization. Can I expell Expelled?
National Review Online ^ | April 28, 2008 | John Derbyshire

Posted on 04/28/2008 12:01:40 PM PDT by Delacon

What on earth has happened to Ben Stein? He and I go back a long way. No, I’ve never met the guy. Back in the 1970s, though, when The American Spectator was in its broadsheet format, I would always turn first to Ben Stein’s diary, which appeared in every issue. He was funny and clever and worldly in a way I liked a lot. The very few times I’ve caught him on-screen, he seems to have had a nice line in deadpan self-deprecation, also something I like. Though I’ve never met him, I know people who know him, and they all speak well of him. Larry Kudlow, whose opinion is worth a dozen average opinions on any topic, thinks the world of Ben.

So what’s going on here with this stupid Expelled movie? No, I haven’t seen the dang thing. I’ve been reading about it steadily for weeks now though, both pro (including the pieces by David Klinghoffer and Dave Berg on National Review Online) and con, and I can’t believe it would yield up many surprises on an actual viewing. It’s pretty plain that the thing is creationist porn, propaganda for ignorance and obscurantism. How could a guy like this do a thing like that?

I turned over some possibilities, but decisively rejected them all. The first thing that came to mind was Saudi money. Half of the evils and absurdities in our society seem to have a Saudi prince behind them somewhere, and the Wahhabists are, like all fundamentalist Muslims, committed creationists. This doesn’t hold water, though. For one thing, Stein is Jewish. For another, he is rich, and doesn’t need the money. And for another, the stills and clips I have seen are from a low-budget production. Saudi financing would surely at least have come up with some decent computer graphics. No, Ben Stein is no crook. He must then be foolish; and that’s sad, because I now think less of a guy I once admired, and whom my friends admire. Life, it’s just one darn bubble bursting after another.

To return to the matter of computer graphics for a moment, it seems that the producers of Expelled, rather than go to the trouble and expense of making their own, may have just stolen some. (The creationists have posted a defense here. There will probably be a lawsuit under way, which I shall report back on. Oh, and as I write this, I see a Reuters report that our defenders of faith and morality may have stolen some music too. How many more shoes will drop, I wonder?) It is at any rate clear that they engaged in much deception with the subjects they interviewed for the movie, many of whom are complaining loudly. This, together with much, much else about the movie, can be read about on the Expelled Exposed website put up by the National Center for Science Education, which I urge all interested readers to explore.

These dishonesties do not surprise me. When talking about the creationists to people who don’t follow these controversies closely, I have found that the hardest thing to get across is the shifty, low-cunning aspect of the whole modern creationist enterprise. Individual creationists can be very nice people, though they get nicer the further away they are from the full-time core enterprise of modern creationism at the Discovery Institute. The enterprise as a whole, however, really doesn’t smell good. You notice this when you’re around it a lot. I shall give some more examples in a minute; but what accounts for all this dishonesty and misrepresentation?

My own theory is that the creationists have been morally corrupted by the constant effort of pretending not to be what they are. What they are, as is amply documented, is a pressure group for religious teaching in public schools.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that. We are a nation of pressure groups, and one more would hardly notice. However, since parents who want their kids religiously educated already have plenty of private and parochial schools to choose from (half the kids on my street have attended parochial school), as well as the option of home schooling, now very well organized and supported (and heartily approved of by me: I just wish I knew how they find the time); and since current jurisprudence, how correctly I am not competent to say, regards tax-funded religious instruction as unconstitutional; creationists are a pressure group without hope, if they campaign openly for the thing they want.

Understanding this, the creationists took the morally fatal decision to campaign clandestinely. They overhauled creationism as “intelligent design,” roped in a handful of eccentric non-Christian cranks keen for a well-funded vehicle to help them push their own flat-earth theories, and set about presenting themselves to the public as “alternative science" engaged in a “controversy” with a closed-minded, reactionary “science establishment” fearful of new ideas. (Ignoring the fact that without a constant supply of new ideas, there would be nothing for scientists to do.) Nothing to do with religion at all!

I think this willful act of deception has corrupted creationism irredeemably. The old Biblical creationists were, in my opinion, wrong-headed, but they were mostly honest people. The “intelligent design” crowd lean more in the other direction. Hence the dishonesty and sheer nastiness, even down to plain bad manners, that you keep encountering in ID circles. It’s by no means all of them, but it’s enough to corrupt and poison the creationist enterprise, which might otherwise have added something worthwhile to our national life, if only by way of entertainment value.

This dishonesty showed up very soon after the creationists decided to don the mask of “alternative science” in the 1990s. A key episode was the Kunming conference of June 1999. In very brief — you can read the full story in Forrest and Gross’s Creationisms Trojan Horse (“A bad book, a very bad book,” shuddered the Discovery Institute’s Bruce Chapman when he saw it on my desk, like a vampire spotting a clove of garlic), pp.56-66 — there is a very interesting bed of extremely old fossils near Kunming, in southern China. Paul Chien, a little-known creationist of Chinese ancestry from San Francisco, acted as a front man for the Discovery Institute to organize a conference in Kunming, bringing in professional paleontologists from China and abroad, but without telling them of the Discovery Institute’s involvement. The aim was “to produce and then to promote a book containing the conference papers of [creationist] members immediately juxtaposed to those written by respected scientists in the relevant fields.” (Forrest & Gross, their italics.) When the real paleontologists found out what was going on, and how they had been brought across China, or around the world, they were not pleased. Embarrassing scenes followed. No book ever appeared.


Examples can be multiplied. The witty and mild-mannered federal Judge Jones, who presided over the 2005 Kitzmiller trial in Dover, Pa., felt moved to note that: “The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.” The response of the Discovery Institute was to launch sneering, slanderous attacks on the professionalism and competence of Judge Jones (a church-going conservative Republican appointed by President George W. Bush).

So it goes with the stalwart defenders of truth and morality over at the Discovery Institute. So it goes with Ben Stein, apparently, since he has signed up with these mountebanks, for reasons that remain mysterious to me. The misrepresentations in Expelled are far too numerous for me to list here, and the task is unnecessary since others have done it. The aforementioned Expelled Exposed website is a great resource. Biologist P. Z. Myers, in a less organized way, has been pointing up the errors and deceptions in Expelled since the wretched thing hove into view. (Here he links to a whole stack of reviews, including a couple of positives.) Other science-literate bloggers have been weighing in, often very angrily. One of my favorite comments came from “Pixy Misa” (Andrew Mazels) who correctly called Ben Stein's accusing Darwin of responsibility for the Holocaust “a blood libel on science.”

I would actually go further than that, to something like “a blood libel on Western Civilization.” One of the most-quoted remarks by one conservative writer about another was Evelyn Waugh's on Kipling. It bears quoting again.

[Kipling] was a conservative in the sense that he believed civilization to be something laboriously achieved which was only precariously defended. He wanted to see the defences fully manned and he hated the liberals because he thought them gullible and feeble, believing in the easy perfectibility of man and ready to abandon the work of centuries for sentimental qualms.

Western civilization has many glories. There are the legacies of the ancients, in literature and thought. There are the late-medieval cathedrals, those huge miracles of stone, statuary, and spiritual devotion. There is painting, music, the orderly cityscapes of Renaissance Italy, the peaceful, self-governed townships of old New England and the Frontier, the steel marvels of the early industrial revolution, our parliaments and courts of law, our great universities with their spirit of restless inquiry.

And there is science, perhaps the greatest of all our achievements, because nowhere else on earth did it appear. China, India, the Muslim world, all had fine cities and systems of law, architecture and painting, poetry and prose, religion and philosophy. None of them ever accomplished what began in northwest Europe in the later 17th century, though: a scientific revolution. Thoughtful men and women came together in learned societies to compare notes on their observations of the natural world, to test their ideas in experiments, and in reasoned argument against the ideas of others, and to publish their results in learned journals. A body of common knowledge gradually accumulated. Patterns were observed, laws discerned and stated.

If I write with more feeling than usual here it is because I have just shipped off a review to an editor (for another magazine) of Gino Segrè’s new book about the history of quantum mechanics. It’s a good, if not very remarkable, book giving pen-portraits of the great players in physics during the 1920s and 1930s, and of their meetings and disagreements. Segrè, a particle physicist himself, who has been around for a while, knew some of these people personally, and of course heard many anecdotes from their intellectual descendants. It's a “warm” book, full of feeling for the scientists and their magnificent enterprise, struggling with some of the most difficult problems the human intellect has ever confronted, striving with all their powers to understand what can barely be understood.

Gino Segrè’s book — and, of course, hundreds like it (I have, ahem, dabbled myself) brings to us a feeling for what the scientific endeavor is like, and how painfully its triumphs are won, with what sweat and tears. Our scientific theories are the crowning adornments of our civilization, towering monuments of intellectual effort, built from untold millions of hours of observation, measurement, classification, discussion, and deliberation. This is quite apart from their wonderful utility — from the light, heat, and mobility they give us, the drugs and the gadgets and the media. (A “thank you” wouldn’t go amiss.) Simply as intellectual constructs, our well-established scientific theories are awe-inspiring.

And now here is Ben Stein, sneering and scoffing at Darwin, a man who spent decades observing and pondering the natural world — that world Stein glimpses through the window of his automobile now and then, when he’s not chattering into his cell phone. Stein claims to be doing it in the name of an alternative theory of the origin of species: Yet no such alternative theory has ever been presented, nor is one presented in the movie, nor even hinted at. There is only a gaggle of fools and fraudsters, gaping and pointing like Apaches on seeing their first locomotive: “Look! It moves! There must be a ghost inside making it move!”

The “intelligent design” hoax is not merely non-science, nor even merely anti-science; it is anti-civilization. It is an appeal to barbarism, to the sensibilities of those Apaches, made by people who lack the imaginative power to know the horrors of true barbarism. (A thing that cannot be said of Darwin. See Chapter X of Voyage of the Beagle.)

And yes: When our greatest achievements are blamed for our greatest moral failures, that is a blood libel against Western civilization itself. What next, Ben? Johann Sebastian Bach ran a slave-trading enterprise on the side? Kepler started the Thirty Years War? Tolstoy instigated the Kishinev Pogrom? Dante was a bag-man for the Golden Horde? Why not go smash a few windows in Chartres Cathedral, Ben? Break wind in a chamber-music concert? Splash some red paint around in the Uffizi? Which other of our civilizational achievements would you like to sneer at? What else from what Waugh called “the work of centuries” would you like to “abandon … for sentimental qualms”? You call yourself a conservative? Feugh!

For shame, Ben Stein, for shame. Stand up for your civilization, man! and all its glories. The barbarians are at the gate, as they always have been. Come man the defenses with us, leaving the liars and fools to their lies and folly.



TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: benstein; creationism; derbyshire; directedpanspermia; expelled; intelligentdesign; moviereview; panspermia
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode
Because people rose up against the Nazis and got rid of them. I think you overestimate how many common people are brainwashed by Darwinism.

No, that argument does not fly. We may have eliminated Nazis, but evolution has only grown more extensive and understood.

Tell me what happened to the Theory of Evolution so that no more new Nazis are created by it.

This is such an utter BS argument that I can't even believe we're having it.

If you can't see that Ben Stein wanted to equate Nazis with evolutionists for pure dramatic purposes, when there is absoultely no historical evidence that even suggests that, then just say so. I'll not argue with someone who has no evidence but is strongly in favor of a fantasy.

You sound like you might have gone to college. Do you remember in history class any suggestion that the rise of Hitler was tied to anything but the failure of the Weimar Republic and the crushing reparations required of Germany after WWI?

Have you ever heard this "Darwinism"=Nazis anywhere prior to this stupid film?

381 posted on 04/30/2008 7:08:03 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: tpanther
Which brings up a very VERY valid point....why all the lawsuits and secularist censorship for that which doesn’t exist?

The lawsuits are against attempts to teach religious doctrines in public school science classes. That's quite a different thing from what Stein's movie complains about.

As to other attempts to censor free religious expression in public (i.e. Christmas, the 10 Comandments, etc), I stand with you in opposing them. But this is a completely different issue.

382 posted on 04/30/2008 7:11:01 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity; tpanther

Nobody is even trying to deny those who espouse ID a public pulpit.

The issues are quite different, and I do understand if some poeple have trouble differentiating.

This issue is actually quite specific. Must ID be taught as science?

It’s clearly not science (at least not yet, in deference to tpanther), even if its conclusion is accurate, so that answers that question.


383 posted on 04/30/2008 7:47:46 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: wideawake
>>A populist is a person who is up for whatever the crowd wants today....If firearm ownership is popular, a populist is all for it. If firearm confiscation becomes popular tomorrow, then he is all for that. He really hasn't given the matter much thought.<<

As I said before, as far as I can tell, that is an obscure definition I have not seen anywhere else. Using that definition though, after Rush Limbaugh wrote Populism Is Not Conservatism, one would have thought that the word "populism" meant worship of the devil, and it would be ironic how trendy it was on FR to condemn "populism." Yes, politicians can manipulate the public, but sometimes populism is a valid rejection of party or government BS. I am really getting off the thread topic here, sorry.

384 posted on 04/30/2008 8:14:28 PM PDT by ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas (I want to "Buy American" but the only things for sale made in the USA are politicians)
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To: Delacon; All
Related thread
385 posted on 04/30/2008 8:19:45 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Shryke

>>dddfd: What I find disturbing is the arrogance of some scientists and their ideological allies who pretend that they really understand life

Shryke: Ah, hrm. I’ve not come across what you are discussing.<<

You have not come across any materialists who describe living things as no more than arrangements of particles? I have, here on FR.

>>I have come across a good amount of scientists that are pissed off because they have creationists telling them they don’t understand science.<<

I agree that there are some creationists who present very weak arguments cloaked in scientific-sounding language, in some cases because they erroneously believe that evolution science is incompatible with a belief in God. I think that they ultimately do their cause more harm than good.

I believe in a God who is the source of life, and that none of us are capable of understanding life, but I offer no scientific proof of that belief. I believe that at least some of evolution science is true WRT the external, physical form of life, which is science’s proper domain.


386 posted on 04/30/2008 8:44:08 PM PDT by ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas (I want to "Buy American" but the only things for sale made in the USA are politicians)
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To: Dog Gone

LOL!!!!

That’s simply not true at all!

That’s an outRAAAAAgeous statement to make!

If it WERE true I SERIOUSLY doubt we’d have so much turmoil in the courts, over this incessant polarizing culture war, not just in science but across the board!

The main problem is hardly some effort to create a theocracy or proselytize, but an effort in response to PRESERVE what’s under systematic ATTACK!

Attaching stipulations like “anywhere but science class” isn’t a BIT different than saying Christianity is fine, just as long as I don’t have to hear it, or it’s kept behind closed doors in churches on Sunday where it belongs, as long as it isn’t heard in public, in courtrooms, in government, blah blah blah blah, blah...

I’m not saying every child should have to study ID or even forced to acknowledge it as science, OTHER THAN some people consider it a viable THEORY to stand alone evolution, presented as such, in science class.

For all I care, the teacher can say something like: ID is a theory that some people accept as scientific, some don’t, even most (either way). It’s not rather it’s right or wrong, but but about the search for truth as we know it scientifically. Perhaps one day enough new information will lead scientists to different conclusions one way or another, and there are books in the library to further explore it, but for now, evolution, even with all it’s shortcomings will be explored.

It shouldn’t be hidden from public or ridiculed in other words, ANYWHERE!

Further, if a student genuinely, at some point has a simple question related to it, he’s not scared to ask it AND the teacher isn’t worried to answer either.

Of course if it’s clear he’s being a smart-@ss, that’s different, and that’s true of all kids pushing the envelope...they’ll hijack ANYTHING to be disruptive, get out of work, etc.

But all too often what we have now, is the Bible, or prayer or even simply public acknowledgement; as if it’s something to be ashamed of, just like when a child asks innocently from a teacher “Does God exist”? OR “Which is right, science class or religion class”? and is told that subject is taboo...BANNED from the hallways of public schools...science class...EVERYWHERE! Gets lectured about the runaway socialization and robotic programming about separation of church and state pathologies, CAN’T PRAY, CAN’T READ THE BIBLE, CAN’T EVEN SO MUCH AS MENTION JESUS AT GRADUATION WITHOUT BEING THREATEND WITH ARREST!

Yup, that too happened as if this is Stalinist Russia!

So I guess I see the whole issue in a complete different way than you do, and would therefore re-phrase the question, MUST creation, ID, and when you come right down to it, GOD; be hidden at any and all costs, in some ridiculous way as to make most everyone uncomfortable in ANY classroom?


387 posted on 04/30/2008 8:45:05 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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To: curiosity

I think it’s mostly a different issue, but not COMPLETELY as you assert.

While I think there are some that are hell bent in making this a theorcracy or hi-kacking science and/or politics and trying to present religious doctrine in science class, I ALSO think believers are growing pretty damned tired of sheepishly tip-toeing around having to hide God, forced to deny God, be it science class, the courtrooms, pretty much public in general. I personally see God’s hand in science, but that’s because He’s omnipotent and everywhere. I don’t think YOU have to agree with that, and I don’t even think you should have to care, but on the other hand I don’t have to HIDE it either! NOT from ANYONE.

Am I saying to pass out ID tracts in science class? No.
What I’m saying is most deserve a voice in their belief that God has a hand in Creation that transcends ALL human understanding.

In other words, the only faith that people are allowed to acknowledge isn’t JUST matter from no matter, big bangs, unpurposeful existence, etc. etc. etc.

I don’t want children forced to learn ID, OR evolution for that matter, against their will, I think it would ENHANCE learning ANYTHING based on their value sysem, OR AT LEAST NOT COUNTER TO IT!

I would favor evolution of course presented as theory, as well as simple acknowledgement without ridicule that many if not most people believe in ID, God, creation. I don’t even care what terminology is used, as long as it’s respectful.

I always heard the argument that Christianity had to be removed from public because so many kids were uncomfortable if they were Jewish, muslim, atheist and teased for not conforming etc. etc. etc. I think that’s a cop out, but nonetheless, since it does happen should be monitored.

Well, the ANSWWER to that is NOT a kneejerk 180 degree turn back on Christianity/theists, etc!

As much as anything, I’m simply not much for banning, or censoring those we disagree with but rather let the process work itself out, and I TRULY think it WOULD work itself out much faster that way, since if it TRULY isn’t science, it would work itself out, THROUGH people submitting experiments, papers, what have you.

But to scream that’s not science from kindergarten on will do nothing but clog up courts and set honest scientific debate BACK by postponing such a conclusion IMO.

If people are wrong, let ‘em PROVE it! :)

LET students challenge it! LET them discuss it!

AND let freedom ring!


388 posted on 04/30/2008 9:06:31 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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To: Dog Gone

you lost me there.


389 posted on 04/30/2008 9:09:13 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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To: Dog Gone

“It’s the rib thing that was weird”.

IS not was, it STILL is weird, to me anyway.

Something about Christianity, God knows what He’s doing!

Some people are meant to understand things crystal clear I beleive. I’m simply not one of them when it comes to creation, not even close.

PERHAPS this will be clear to us, sooner, later, who knows? Perhaps in the next life, perhaps never.

I guess a way to explain it is the Detroit Lions playbook is a foreign mess to a QB that’s part of the steeler organization. But once he’s traded to the lions, he’s exposed to practices, talks to the offensive coordinator, it makes MORE sense anyway.

OK OK...admittedly the Detroit Lions might not be the best example....:)

But that’s the way the Bible works. It CAN be a 100% mystery, but the likelihood that at least SOME of it makes sense is reached once your perspective is that of a Christian, or at least Judeo-Christian. (Even muslim in some respects from what I’m told.)

The thing is, before I was a Christian or even believed on my own there is a God, a big bang and so forth was waaaaaaay out there to me!

Funny the way God made Adam, funnier still the way He made Eve, but there’s symbology in that...makes them close, her part of him, him part of her...why he didn’t choose a nipple? Beats thehelloutta me!

I’m all for rules and conformity and so on...but science itself isn’t static, including how we test, define, THEORIZE it, etc.

I’m also for thinking outside the box.

The turth is, evolution is simply inadequate, and of course my other experiences lead me NATURALLY to the ID theory.

If people in charge of promoting ID are in it for politics, religion and not science, shame on them!

BUT, just the same, let them prove it!

Or let others DISprove it.

If it’s every single time and forever “not science”, how are they to prove it within science? Should they go over to the math class and prove it scientifically?

BTW, origin of life, progression of life, evolution...whatever, it’s full of way too many gaps. It’s all theory, and many pieces of puzzles are beyond our understanding, scientific or otherwise. Not even all scientists even agree, and many assert IT’s nothing more than “faith”!

When people are always warning about all the kook religions, wiccans, etc. creeping in...I say the more the merrier!

Society itself will weed this out anyway!

Always trying to BAN everything though, except of course atheism, agnosticism, etc. will only keep it around, perhaps even creating MORE kooks that snip their nuts off and kill themselves to catch spaceships in comet tails to get to heaven!

Same for scientific theories!

I wasn’t equating cellphones with ID, rather pointing out how we define science itself changes over time, how we understand science EVOLVES. So who’s to say God didn’t use evolution as a tool and sooner or later theologins and scientists will come to the same conclusions when there’s a merge?

What you and I call science today will be laughable 500 years from now...but what may, MAY be the biggest joke of all is that people were actually saying things like ID is scientific (OR evolution), but what might be the biggest laugher of all is: THAT’s not science!

Something that should be MOST obvious is that if there is a God, HE certainly gave you free will. It stands to reason, that Jesus wants people that through their free will come to Him, He doesn’t want forced conformity.

Therefore the idea of a Theorcracy in this country can’t work, because the majority of people, Christian or otherwise, I beleive, are not the extremists. THEREFORE, we won’t let a Theocracy happen.

I’d be right alongside you if ANYONE was demanding ID without evolution, or that people be forced to define anything, believe anything...that’s DEMANDED of them.

but vice versa is true...I’m NOT going to conform to the state. Nor illegal laws that hijack us for the sake of religion OR secularism.


But you just don’t get to win the argument that it’s science and should be taught equally with other scientific disciplines until it’s something more than a conclusion.

>>>>I think what you fail to see is that YOU don’t get to win the argument in defining what is or isn’t science, after all, evolution is ALSO theory, unprovable, just because it needs 40,000 MORE years to “prove”...ONLY means that’s your best guess!

SHUCKS, YOU DON’T EVEN “GET TO” DEFINE THE ARGUMENT!

See, in America, we ALL do, or NONE of us do!

Scientists aren’t God or the Wizard of Oz. They’re people. Imperfect with much to learn!

Nobody is banning ID?

You keep saying that, but always attach the stipulation that it can’t be taught in science class in public schools.

As evidence shows us, more peole are turning to private schools, and more are turning to home schooling. Which unsurprisingly is why California liberals are in a state of panic now banning...YUP...home schooling!

SURELY you realize ID is accepted in therefore a growing number of science curriculums...which leads me to the next issue:

Sooner or later the SCOTUS WILL have to FINALLY answer to this absolutely off the rails separation of church and state issue once and for all. OR at least some clarificiations in the present situation...there are simply way too many and a growing number of cases clogging up the courts concerning relgious freedoms and intolerance thereof in this country.

Sooner or later the majority that tolerate God are going to be pushed just so far and I think that point has been reached, and more will wonder why it is the tolerant of God that are having to be forced to pay for private schools and not the other way around!

Shouldn’t it be the Michael Newdow’s of the world and his ilk, hijacking his own daughter to arrogantly demand of the WHOLE country to once again somehow disacknowledge God...the same Christian God the founding fathers ackowledged many times?

I think the more people “demand” it be their way, the more Christians (and others for that matter) are going to push back!

BTW, I’m curious...I saw a show once called “the science of love”. Discovery channel or one of those.

It went on and on about male and female sexuality, all the scientific physical changes that go on...it wasn’t “the science of lust” mind you, but the science of love.

Now I wonder...why weren’t the phones literally ringing off the hook? Because I’ve yet to see a paper, a shred of evidence ANYTHING that PROVES love is a SCIENTIFIC phenomenon!

Now I smell a load of hypocrisy on the subject of what is or isn’t science from these people demanding to define “acceptable” science for everyone!

AGAIN!


390 posted on 04/30/2008 10:08:18 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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To: Ken H
My turn - Do you think the federal war on drugs is constitutional?

When you see something coming down the pike that you really don’t want to deal with, you can first try changing the subject before you simply refuse to respond. Instead of either, let’s try staying more or less on topic.

You asked a simple direct question, I gave a simple direct answer. Anything else you read into it came from your own imagination.

A direct question surely. But, hardly simple. The fundamental law of a government may be, and probably should be, written in simple and direct language, but the concepts and understandings it defines can be anything but simple. And, I don’t need imagination, merely experience, to understand that a gapping contextual hole in a propounded principle must be viewed with suspicion at least until a clarification is provided. You had interjected a constitutional fragment into a dispute over the issue; Science - a religion or no. The cited constitutional language left doubt that it was relevant to the issue. Providing the proper context removed all doubt, establishing indeed that it had no relevance.

I did not know that! /sarcasm

Now how could I possibly know that you did know that the constitutional text you quoted had entirely to do with the right to property when you interjected it into a dispute over science, religion, and education?

In any event I’m glad to hear that your opinion is that the Feds have no constitutional power to fund or regulate education. On that point, at least, we are in agreement. That that point might suggest to you certain other conclusions, or at least some other points meriting examination, is probably too much to expect.

391 posted on 04/30/2008 10:23:14 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS
When you see something coming down the pike that you really don't want to deal with, you can first try changing the subject before you simply refuse to respond. Instead of either, let's try staying more or less on topic.

- The subject was originally whether science is a religion. You were the one who introduced the enumerated power over education into our discussion (post #366), which necessarily raises the Commerce Clause issue. Now it looks like you're chlckening out by dodging my question on the same power.

You had interjected a constitutional fragment into a dispute over the issue; Science - a religion or no.

You asked by what means Congress could promote science. I gave you a complete and accurate answer. You cannot justify reading anything else into it.

Now how could I possibly know that you did know that the constitutional text you quoted had entirely to do with the right to property

You could have had the common courtesy to ask.

when you interjected it into a dispute over science, religion, and education?

There was no discussion of education in my posts, or in the post I originally replied to, until YOU interjected it. You played that card, and it looks like you're running away from a challenge.

392 posted on 04/30/2008 11:29:04 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: tpanther
BANNED from the hallways of public schools...science class...EVERYWHERE! Gets lectured about the runaway socialization and robotic programming about separation of church and state pathologies, CAN’T PRAY, CAN’T READ THE BIBLE, CAN’T EVEN SO MUCH AS MENTION JESUS AT GRADUATION WITHOUT BEING THREATEND WITH ARREST!

Oh brother. Your increasingly strident attempts to portray Christians in this country as persecuted victims of horrifying religious repression is just hyperbolic nonsense. Go to church, for crying out loud. You know, one of those approximately 300,000 buildings across the country with a cross in front.

393 posted on 05/01/2008 6:38:25 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: atlaw

You’d feel alot different if the judge threatend all raider fans with arrest, everytime they utterd ‘black hole’ in public.

Too many mountains of evidence, too many lawsuits and if you somehow need “proof”:

ThomasMore.org

ACLJ.org

Here’s another clue, church attendance isn’t how you determine CHristianity.


394 posted on 05/01/2008 7:35:17 AM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther
I also think when a person, or group begins demanding to define and to control exchange of information is dangerous, from EITHER side BTW, and I’d vigorously tell ID proponents looking to DEMAND evolution be banned, or dismissed or made fun of, that they’re doing more to HARM ID with that attitude. But demanidng people to shut up because that’s not science, etc. likewise isn’t a genuine exploration of ideas IMO.

You're about the only person on these threads who isn't a dope when it comes to this subject.

395 posted on 05/01/2008 8:02:55 AM PDT by jmc813 (Eek!)
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To: tpanther
Here’s another clue, church attendance isn’t how you determine CHristianity.

Well, I guess you're right. Churches have become an irrelevancy to the hopelessly hyperbolic "Christians-Are-Persecuted" brigade.

All that seems to matter to them is whether some watered-down, generic, unoffensive-to-any-denomination form of religious pledge-of-allegience is uttered in high school homerooms and at the beginning of science classes.

396 posted on 05/01/2008 8:04:51 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: Coyoteman
How much time do fundamentalists spend attacking those other areas of science?

Do a FR search for "Global Warming".

397 posted on 05/01/2008 8:10:09 AM PDT by jmc813 (Eek!)
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To: ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas
You have not come across any materialists who describe living things as no more than arrangements of particles? I have, here on FR.

That is not what you said. You said they pretend they really understand life. I've not met any biologists that claim such knowledge.

398 posted on 05/01/2008 8:25:20 AM PDT by Shryke
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To: Dog Gone
There have been plenty of racial conflicts throughout history, involving politics, religion, or some political philosophy, and most of these precede Darwin.

They were not based, as far as I know, on theories about racial superiority. They were just groups that couldn't get along, the stronger was taking advantage of the weaker, etc. So that's irrelevant.

I perfectly understand cause and effect, and the difference between that and guilt by association. But blaming Nazi Germany on Darwin is even a ridiculous guilt by association argument, since it wasn't even mentioned by Hitler, and every esteemed historian that I've read never blamed it on Darwin.

So you've read every "esteemed historian" that ever wrote anything about Hitler? You're very well read!! Here's a book by Richard Weikart, professor of modern European history at California State University.

FROM DARWIN TO HITLER: EVOLUTIONARY ETHICS, EUGENICS, AND RACISM IN GERMANY

"Richard Weikart's outstanding book shows in sober and convincing detail how Darwinist thinkers in Germany had developed an amoral attitude to human society by the time of the First World War, in which the supposed good of the race was applied as the sole criterion of public policy and 'racial hygiene'. Without over-simplifying the lines that connected this body of thought to Hitler, he demonstrates with chilling clarity how policies such as infanticide, assisted suicide, marriage prohibitions and much else were being proposed for those considered racially or eugenically inferior by a variety of Darwinist writers and scientists, providing Hitler and the Nazis with a scientific justification for the policies they pursued once they came to power." -- Richard Evans, Professor of Modern History, University of Cambridge, and author of The Coming of the Third Reich

"This is one of the finest examples of intellectual history I have seen in a long while. It is insightful, thoughtful, informative, and highly readable. Rather than simply connecting the dots, so to speak, the author provides a sophisticated and nuanced examination of numerous German thinkers of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries who were influenced to one degree or another by Darwinist naturalism and their ideas, subtly drawing both distinctions and similarities and in the process telling a rich and colorful story." -- Ian Dowbiggin, Professor of History, University of Prince Edward Island and author of A Merciful End: The Euthanasia Movement in Modern America

"This is an impressive piece of intellectual and cultural history--a well-researched, clearly presented argument with good, balanced, fair judgments. Weikart has a thorough knowledge of the relevant historiography in both German and English." -- Alfred Kelly, Edgar B. Graves Professor of History, Hamilton College, and author of The Descent of Darwin: The Popularization of Darwinism in Germany, 1860-1914

"This is truly a well-crafted work of intellectual history, and one directly relevant to some of the most consequential ethical discussions of our present time. Christians and all people of good will would do well to ponder these arguments, recognizing how easily the best and brightest can commit the worst and darkest under the progressive banner of biological 'health and fitness.' The book should provoke much debate and discussion, not only among historians but among ethicists and scientists too." --Thomas Albert Howard, Associate Professor of History, Gordon College, author of Protestant Theology and the Making of the Modern German University (forthcoming)

"The philosophy that fueled German militarism and Hitlerism is taught as fact in every American public school, with no disagreement allowed. Every parent ought to know this story, which Weikart persuasively explains." --Phillip Johnson, Professor Emeritus of Law, University of California, Berkeley, and author of Darwin on Trial and Reason in the Balance

"If you think moral issues like infanticide, assisted suicide, and tampering with human genes are new, read this book. It draws a clear and chilling picture of the way Darwinian naturalism led German thinkers to treat human life as raw materials to be manipulated in order to advance the course of evolution. The ethics of Hitler's Germany were not reactionary; they were very much 'cutting edge' and in line with the scientific understanding of the day. Weikart's implicit warning is that as long as the same assumption of Darwinian naturalism reigns in educated circles in our own day, it may well lead to similar practices." --Nancy Pearcey, author of Total Truth and co-author of The Soul of Science and How Now Shall We Live

"Richard Weikart's masterful work offers a compelling case that the eugenics movement, and all the political and social consequences that have flowed from it, would have been unlikely if not for the cultural elite's enthusiastic embracing of the Darwinian account of life, morality, and social institutions. Professor Weikart reminds us, with careful scholarship and circumspect argument, that the truth uttered by Richard Weaver decades ago is indeed a fixed axiom of human institutions: 'ideas have consequences.'" --Francis J. Beckwith, Associate Director, J.M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, and Associate Professor of Church-State Studies, Baylor University

"Richard Weikart has provided bioethicists with an excellent resource in From Darwin to Hitler." --Center for Bioethics and Culture Newsletter

As I understand it, the Darwin-holocaust theory is like Wright's AIDS conspiracy theory.

If I had said either of those things, it would be fair to comment on them, but you made them up. You certainly do not speak for me.

I didn't mean you had said the first thing. I meant that's your only valid argument. Your original post asserting that the holocaust theory was some kind of attack on science seemed to imply the second part. You can disagree with the holocaust theory certainly, but not on the grounds of defending science.

399 posted on 05/01/2008 8:44:17 AM PDT by lasereye
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To: lasereye
Dog Gone: "There have been plenty of racial conflicts throughout history, involving politics, religion, or some political philosophy, and most of these precede Darwin."

lasereye: "They were not based, as far as I know, on theories about racial superiority. They were just groups that couldn't get along, the stronger was taking advantage of the weaker, etc. So that's irrelevant."

I'm speechless. Historical revisionism knows no bounds.

And by the way, Weikart's book, underwritten by the Discovery Institute in furtherance of its Wedge strategy, is itself a fine example of the historical dissembling engaged in by ID proponents.

400 posted on 05/01/2008 10:24:57 AM PDT by atlaw
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