Posted on 03/27/2008 4:40:22 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama suggested Wednesday that Jesus Christ is not the only way to heaven during a campaign event in North Carolina.
While answering a question about his Christian faith, Obama said he believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins and through God’s grace and mercy he could have “everlasting life,” according to the Los Angeles Times.
But he also believes Jews and Muslims and non-believers who live moral lives are as much “children of God” as he is, according to The Associated Press.
As an example, he spoke about his late mother who was “not a believer.”
"[S]he was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known," Obama said, according to the Times. "I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to."
Obama’s response amid the recent controversy surrounding his former Chicago pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who made inflammatory remarks about race and America in sermons he delivered many years ago.
The Illinois senator, who has made religion a cornerstone of his campaign, has denounced the comments – which included “God damn America” for its racism – but refuses to distance himself from the pastor, whom he compares to an uncle.
During his response on Wednesday, Obama praised his church, Trinity United Church of Christ, especially its choir, and said it was very warm and welcoming and is like any other church in America in that it exists to praise God.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianpost.com ...
Thanks...I know the precise passage of which you speak, and was going to cite it here; you spared me the trouble of doing so. I agree that salvation can only be known through Christ, but my personal belief is that an all merciful Jesus Christ reveals himself to those who may have never been exposed to "Christianity" in the sense we think of it. Likewise, I agree that those who have been introduced to Christ and knowingly reject him will ultimately have to lay in a bed of their own making.
Just some examples. Fidel Castro. Fidel believes that if he gets the priests in for last rites just before he dies, he's good with God. And in some Christian teachings, he would be correct in believing this.
Another is Eliot Spitzer, posterboy for adultery 2008. Say he was a 'Christian' that professed his faith but continued his escapades.
Then I think of a good hardworking family who live in Iran who are forbidden to even think about Christianity let alone practice it. Or the Buddhist monks in Tibet who are striving for religious and other freedoms.
Point is, whose going to Heaven from this lot? Shall we all just say the people of Tibet are heathens who are damned so why should we care? The Iranian family is our enemy because they are Muslim? How can I judge their hearts?
Admittance to the Lord's kingdom is by individual based on the lives they each led. It's individual and personal with each and we cannot know the reasons for judgment except for ourselves.
The Lord never "died". He became the Divine Human -- God in perfect form.
He was born half Divine, half human. Through His life, He conquered the hells and put off that which was human.
Our own regeneration mirrors this process that the Lord went through. The Lord battled all evils so we do not have to alone.
That’s a decent argument that carries some weight, and I tend to buy into it I think, but it’s hard to be very dogmatic or specific about how those examples turn into a blanket doctrine.
Scripture defines my theology, but it appears (?) that your theology defines how you understand scripture. How would you interpret the following passage from 1 Corinthians 15?
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
This plainly states that Christ, e.g. Jesus, died. There are many more passages in the NT, such as this testimony of Jesus himself in Revelation 1:18 -
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
How can you say, and back with scripture, Jesus did not die?
All human, All divine. Or, to clarify, human body and intellect with a divine soul/spirit, sinless in every respect, yet tempted in all points as we are.
We think of ALL human beings as having an everlasting soul created for a heavenly use. That's our essence -- who we are. It never dies. The Lord is Divine and Wisdom and in the spiritual world, He is seen as it's sun, giving off heat (good) and light (truth).
This world has a sun of fire where things of the vegetable and animal kingdoms die. Our bodies here are just shells for our everlasting souls. These shells will die but that is not who we are. We are spiritual beings.
We resurrect leaving earthly remains, which we consider "dying". The Lord did not resurrect leaving a body behind -- that's why I make the distinction.
He was not Divine Human until after the Glorification.
Nevertheless, the New Testament plainly teaches Jesus died. Now, death, the penalty of sin, is 2 staged: Death of body, death of spirit. The orthodox view of the latter is that the 2nd death refers to eternal separation from God, but I won't argue that point.
Rev 1-18 to the first Christian Church rejecting the Lord in the last days.
No, it does not.
Rev 1-3 is written to the 7 churches spread throughout Asia in Johns day.
Rev 4-19 is about the dire spritual condition of mankind, various plagues and curses on man and the earth, the rise of the Antichrist, persecution of the Jews and Christians, and ultimately Jesus' triumphant return. BTW, the Church (saints, those who hold the testimony of Jesus) is massacred by the antichrist, with millions being slain
Rev 20 is about the millineum, and the final White Throne judgement,
Rev 21 is about the new heavens and earth.
"I will go to him [in the grave/in the ground], but he will not return to me [from the grave/from the ground]."
You can't assume your interpretation about babies going to Heaven is accurate, when there's a perfectly straightforward way to read that comment from David in a way that doesn't suggest your interpretation at all.
God is not sweetness and light toward anyone, babies included. He killed a ton of babies-- during the flood and in various military campaigns he was the general of (to understate God's role) and at other times. He's not touchy-feely or a "sensitive New Age" guy.
In fact, in 2 Samuel, Nathan gives David the news that God is about to bring some four-fold major punishment to David, and it involves punishing others around him for the purpose of punishing David (like a sociopath who kidnaps an enemy's child and tortures them because it tortures the parent-- torturing the child is hardly a concern to him), including the rape of David's daughter Tamar. If God is punishing David by punishing his child, why would he give David a light sentence and give him an indication that the baby will be okay ultimately in heaven. God wants David to feel very bad about this punishment, and not have some silver lining to consider.
Categorically false. Hebrews 4:15 states, in regard to Jesus For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
Do you notice a pattern here? People make claims about the Bible or Jesus, and when rebutted by scripture, go on to make other claims. The New Testament plainly teaches that Jesus was the perfect lamb, sinless and pure. Otherwise, His sacrafice is useless, and we are still in our sins. See also 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:21-22 and 1John 3:5.
Before you proceed to list various alleged sins of Jesus (picking grain on Sabbath, healing on Sabbath, calling Pharisees 'fools', you have to be able to dismiss the above scriptures.
It is apparent that the fundamental nature of Jesus is misunderstood. Jesus IS God! John 1:1, Ephesians 2:6, Col 1:13-19, et al. Thus, if Jesus sinned, then God sinned.
Is your opinion that "He was not Divine Human until after the Glorification" derived from scripture, e.g. the New Testament? If so, please share the verses.
I don't sit and memorize scripture to regurgitate it as a weapon in an argument. I look for common ground and try to witness my own experiences. I look down on those who would say "believe this or you are going to hell" which is exactly the response of many of the posters on this thread. Think about it. These people are rasing children who will be turned off from religion.... for generations.
Again, there are as many Christian paths to the Lord's kingdom as individuals. No two people have the same experiences. Because we believe that 'death' is just a continuation of life, belief in Jesus Christ as the one true God can be attained in the next life. All God's children.
And that's to be commended? I don't wish it to be a weapon, nor do I wish to offend, unless the offence is the cross. Yes, I take the Bible literally, and believe that each human is responsible to read it and understand it for themselves. However, words mean things, and God had words written that exactly express what he wanted to convey, plain words, plain language. Using the method of "spiritualization", however, I can find anything I want. How about a suicide cult? "Judas went out and hung himself...Go ye therefore and do likewise!"
What I think, or you think, or the Dali Lama thinks, is irrelevant, unless it agrees with what a reliable scripture says. You and I must deal with what Jesus said in Matthew 7:34-15:
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
and John 10:1-7
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jesus Said further, in John 14:6
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Regardless of what you or I believe, we must explain what Jesus meant by these sayings. Either he is the exclusive way to God, or he is not. The writing is plain.
iknow the way i was brought up you only get to heaven one way and that would be jesus
If Obama doesn’t believe that we are all sinners in need of a Savior, he may very well not be saved.
I am always surprised at how many people think that getting into Heaven is about doing good and being good. It’s actually the opposite. It is those who understand that they can’t ever be good enough, and who realize their need for the atoning work of Christ, who will go to Heaven.
Is it really that hard for people to conceive of a God who is both loving and just? By just I mean that he will judge people, and that he has wrath, and that he hates sin. I’m sure we can all think of people we believe deserve to go to hell, like Hitler. Can’t God feel the same way?
ROFL!
You would NEVER do that!
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
—Hebrews 4:12
Sounds like a weapon to me. :-)
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