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Locked on 02/18/2008 10:17:33 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/16/2008 3:30:21 PM PST by xcamel
One solution to the nation's long-term fiscal problems that has gained support in recent years is the idea of replacing all federal taxes with a 23 percent national retail sales tax called the FairTax. Unfortunately, the administrative problems inherent in this proposal make it impossible to take seriously, says Bruce Bartlett, former deputy assistant secretary for economic policy at the U.S. Treasury Department.
For example, under a FairTax scheme: A worker now netting $800 per week would immediately get a $200 raise and start taking home the full $1,000 gross wage that he is paid; instead of paying income and payroll taxes, workers would pay their taxes when they buy things.
The FairTax would impose a 23 percent tax on all goods and services (this is not really correct, but for now we'll accept it at face value for analytical purposes).
Whether he is better off or not depends on what his effective tax rate is: Assuming he spends all his income and no more than that, he will be no worse off if he now pays 23 percent of his income in taxes. That is, his effective tax rate is 23 percent; in this case, the FairTax is a wash, the worker is no better off or worse off in terms of taxes than he is now.
But what if the worker is now paying less than 23 percent of his income in federal taxes? In this case, he is clearly worse off, says Bartlett: The prices of the things he buys will rise by more than his income rises from the elimination of income and payroll taxes. Conversely, if one is wealthy and in a tax bracket above 23 percent, that person would be much better off. His income and payroll taxes would fall by much more than the prices of goods and services he consumes would rise.
Source: Bruce Bartlett, "Why the FairTax Won't Work," Tax Notes, December 24, 2007.
For text:
Imagine what the Federal Government’s budget would be (and the associated taxes) if the government were restricted to Constitutional bounds...
The government could exist without the income tax and most other “taxes” as it did for a large chunk of history...
But, as that will never happen because politicians are drunk with the power that comes with taxation and wealth redistribution, we will never see a return to a Constitutional USA.
No one will disagree with you on that. I just don’t feel the FT provides any movement in that direction..
Presently: Take any job that the employer is willing to pay you $100/hr for and, under the income tax you're only going to actually get $70/hr.
Funny thing, I wasn't arguing the math, either -- I was merely stating that what you were saying is wrong.
... just pointing out that the public will not accept a tax that applies 30% to every item and services they purchase.
And, I'm pointing out that well over a Million people already have accepted the 30% (when it's figured one way/23% when figured the other way -- both ways openly explained since the word go; and dozens of times on this forum. Plus 73 members of Congress are SPONSORING the bills -- the most sponsored tax bill in the history of our republic.
I read somewhere that surveys have been done which show that the public are not opposed to the idea of a sales tax up to around the 20% to 25% mark, but when you get much higher - i.e. 30% then it’s met with a high disapproval rate.
Until they understand BOTH methods of figuring the rates of tax -- inclusively and exclusively.
Hence the FT advocates using the inclusive 23% number instead of the more easily comparable 30% rate.
True -- IF YOU LISTEN TO ONLYHALF OF WHAT THEY SAY. What they DO say is that 23% marked price of the item is the tax. What they are NOT saying is that 30% will be ADDED TO the marked price of the item -- as you people are trying to say. That is a lie, and you all know it. To argue that the FT is not a sales tax is ridiculous.
Well, at least you have that right. The only ones I know of claiming that are the lying anti-FT horde, here and in the press -- including Bruced Bartlett -- NOT the FairTaxers, who call it a NATIONAL RETAIL SALES TAX, which it properly is.
As others have pointed out, companies will still advertise their wares at the tax-exclusive price and then tack on 30% to the bill at the register. Only if they want to be driven out of business by competeting companies who will lower their prices by the 23% and retrieve it with the 23% included in the marked price -- shown on the receipt as the sales tax. It's their choice; stay in business or be greedy and go bankrupt.
How on earth is that “not like a sales tax”?
Who's make that asinine? Not the FairTaxers. In the U.K. most retail sales are advertised and transacted using the VAT-inclusive rate. Guess what? That rate is still recognized as 17.5% on top of the price of the goods (i.e. value-added-tax) and not 14.8% of the inclusive price.
What the UK is doing is entirely irrelevant. And has been for a long time.
So when people are informed that the Fair Tax is a 23% tax on everything you buy they will naturally assume that means for every $1.00 they spend they will have to pay an extra $0.23.
That's exactly what I thought the first time I heard Neal Boortz say it. I thought he had lost his mind -- until he explained it, and I listened to what he was ACTUALLY SAYING.
That’s how 200+ million Americans have been doing it for the whole of their lives. That’s how a sales tax is calculated, and that’s how they would expect the Fair Tax rate to be described, and they won’t be happy when they find that the real equivalent rate is 30%.
I don't buy you obvious idea that the American people are too damned dumb to find out the truth that there at present about 23% of the price of their purchase is HIDDDEN federal taxes and costs, NOT disclosed on their receipt, and that it is that same 23% that the FAir Tax will be paying tax OPENLY, and which WILL be disclosed on the receipt they receive. Fair tax advocates may argue that they use 23% as the better equivalent to the current income tax system, but it is mighty convenient for them that people won’t understand that the 23% tax on things they buy is not calculated the same way as the 6% or 8% or whatever sales tax they pay on everything today.
You may think the entire American population is mind dead -- I don't. Admittedly, a lot of the American people are dumb enough to vote Democrat, but I don't think even all of those are too stupid to understand the Fair Tax comcept.
Are you saying xcamel does that? Just wondering.
Are you saying xcamel does that? Just wondering.
What if only one company sells a diabetes drug?
Oh, no, don’t you realize that without FITW you’ll be able to drop all those salaries and everyone will be happy, because that’s the complex calculation they perform everyday when they come to work.
The rebuttal to Bartlett’s hit piece is freely available here:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9321
Ah the reference to a hit piece to hit a hit piece. Circular logic.
Presently: Take any job that the employer is willing to pay you $100/hr for and, under the income tax you're only going to actually get $70/hr.Under the Fairtax it's only worth $70
Your highly biased source has been posted about a dozen times now, but thanks for playing..
Either you have a very simple tax situation for yourself and your businesses, or you are missing out on tax avoidance measures that could reduce your tax bills. Are you sure you are not paying more than you need to be paying?
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Believe me. I take full advantage of EVERY legal benefit form the current tax system. I just do not see why it is such a pain for many. Most of the same things the IRS asks for are the same things you need to know to run a good business or even have a solid family financial plan.
Perhaps, but fairtaxer.org outright lies about embedded taxes and have knowingly done so for a decade.
That's real funny given the fact that you have been asked repeatedly to name some of them and you refuse. That can only mean they don't exist.
Why is the even brought up? The IRS will never be dumped, and the Fair Tax implemented. Will not happen, too much politics.
I gave you the links before. Go away troll.
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