Study: Lack of MRAPs cost Marine lives

Associated Press ^ | Feb 15, 2008 | By RICHARD LARDNER

[Blood of Tyrants]

You would think that with the $300 BILLION spent on the effort in Iraq that they could squeeze a few hundred million out for these vehicles. Besides, they might get a break on the price if they ordered them in quantity.

[billmor]

Other countries in the world have built good fighting vehicles..Is there anything already developed that is better and cheaper than the MRAP ?...If so, why didn’t the Pentagon buy these?..

Same with other military equipment...Screw the MILSPECS..If another country has a better mousetrap, then buy the thing and get it over to our troops asap...

[billmor]

One more thing: Isn’t it time for the USMC to become a branch of the Military separate from the US Navy ?...Marine Corps personnel know what equipment they need and what works, but they still have to go through Navy procurement channels...If that is the government’s way of saving a biuck, it sucks...We spend billions on frivolous turkeys yet we cannot get the proper equipment for our men...This is beyond sad..It is atrocious..

My son was in the USMC in Desert Storm and he said everything they had was hand-me-downs from the US Navy...You could tell: it was marked ‘squid’...everything from clothing to weapons was used...even the ammo was old and many times his cannon shells were old duds...way to fight a war...

[MinorityRepublican]

Isn’t it time for the USMC to become a branch of the Military separate from the US Navy ?

Or merge it with the Army. But the Marines would be more like "elite infantry".

[VictoryGal]

Bless you for your son’s sacrifice, and prayers up for your family.

Nothing makes me madder than small, bean-counting men deciding against the recommendations of the commanders in the field in order to shave a few dollars off the budget, when it is clear that lives of brave patriots are in the balance. To my mind such small men and the men who aid and abet them are traitors to this country and there ought to be a commensurate penalty paid for all responsible.

Such economic traitors are today making deals with those who would kill us. ChiComs, Muzzie oil barons.

May God give us the strength to find our enemies — both without and within.

[dr_who_2]

That’s a small one.

[dr_who_2]

It’s hard to see how those would have an advantage over a normal vehicle as the chassis just above the drive train is flat like a normal vehicle.

[NorthernTraveler]

Couple of things....

When I was in TQ in ‘06 we saw bunches of MRAP’s... used by high risk units - EOD and Engineers.

Heard there were around 300 in country at the time, but don’t know for sure.

The ones I saw were built by Force Protection, and were virtually hand built on a small production line.

Today I am told there are FOUR different MRAP’s in Iraq with design roots from all over the world. Each version has slightly different strengths and weaknesses.

The logistics to support all these variations is proving tough... but they were rushing to get as many into theater as fast as possible, from as many sources as needed.

Now that Force Dynamics (joint Force Protection and General Dynamics company) is ramped up for production - up to 1000 a month - and the number in use in the field are up - the limitations of MRAP’s are becoming apparent.

In 2005 there literally wasn’t anybody in the world who could build the numbers required... and the question of usefulness for the various demands was unclear. It takes time for testing and refining.

In the mean time other measures were taken to address the problems - up armoring hummers, improved jammers, etc.

This provided time to improve the MRAP’s, and to see if they are really needed.

Nothing is foolproof though....

The saddest day of my time in Iraq is when a troop was killed on his way to see us.... and if our equipment had been in place, he wouldn’t have died.

But the day that had the most impact, that told me the value of what we had done - one of those alternative things that were done - was on the flight home when I was talking with a Marine seated in front of me. He had been stationed 2-3 miles from where I was at (a very tough place), he was in a very high risk job, and was just finishing his 3rd tour. On his first two tours his team had lost 15 people. On his third tour his team had lost 1. The difference was what we had done... in fact, he himself would have been dead if it wasn’t for what we had done.

That kind of feedback just overwhelmed me.... it made everything we had gone though worthwhile.

It’s sad anytime we loose one of our troops.... and sometimes it seems like we need to do more - RIGHT NOW - but we also overlook what we have done, and are doing.

So we do the best that we can, and sometimes in hindsight it looks like we should have done something else, but a decision has to be made with what we KNOW NOW and what we PROJECT at the time.

[freema]

They all look like something out of the Wild, Wild West, or this: http://www.thoroughbredmodels.com/Ironclads.htm

[JudgemAll]

YEah, currently the MRAPs fielded have electrical insulation problems. Some dirt bag contractor has cut corners on price inflating gadgetery.

Those MRAPs do the protecting job but are not all that it is expected.

[elfman2]

That’s a cool idea. Target stores might want to abstain.

[abercrombie_guy_38]

“You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want” is one of the most assinine sentences every uttered by a politician and the SecDef at that!

It was disgusting reading posts on FR defending that comment.

[reefdiver]

We went to war in 43 with almost nothing, People were training with wooden rifles, Our tanks were tin cans. We were not at all ready. It took a total transformation of society to change and arm ourselves to win. We went to war then with what we had, not what we wish we had. It just happened again!

[archy]

An urgent February 2005 request for MRAPs got lost in bureaucracy. It was signed by then-Brig. Gen. Dennis Hejlik, who asked for 1,169 of the vehicles. The Marines could not continue to take "serious and grave casualties" caused by IEDs when a solution was commercially available, wrote Hejlik, who was a commander in western Iraq from June 2004 to February 2005.

In the early 1990s, we had around 7,340 M60A3 TTS upgraded Patton tanks, just refitted with thermal sights and night vision equipment, essentially the USMC version that were the leading edge of the attack that rolled into Kuwait City during Operation Desert Storm in February 1991. The're far less maintenance-intensive than the M1 Abrams series, and would have required little other than a short driver's course to have made them the standard US military vehicle in Iraq rather then the mine and small arms-vulknerable HUMVEE. And Explosive Reactive Armor designed for use on M60 tanks has a lot better chance of defeating the latest EFP antiarmor IEDs.

Yes, tanks use more fuel. LOTS more. In that region, that should not have been much of a consideration. And if nothing else, the *other people* would have had a lot more work to put together an IED that would kill an M60- I once saw a very similar M48A3 that had been straddling a 750-pound aircraft bomb turned into a command-detonated mine when it was exploded- destroying the tank and seperating the engine/transmission powerpack and turret from the chassis- but all the crew inside survived, though with injuries. But they were a lot better off than if they'd been in a HUMVEE or other 5/4 ton truck....

Not to mention that the tank's 7.62mm co-ax MG, .50 M2 in the commander's cupe, the two flex MGs on the roof and the 105mm main gun with a 105mm APERS round up the spout could be real handy for US troops chasing down insurgents within binocular range of any command-detonated Iraqi IEDs, as well as the night vision and thermal viewers aboard, not limited by battery life like the man-portable infantry versions. and if the 4-man crew is too small for stabilization force duties, just pull the turret of every third vehicle, like the Canadians did by pulling turrets off Sherman tanks during WWII- it takes about a day at a depot facility set up for it.

VIETNAM STUDIES, MOUNTED COMBAT IN VIETNAM, Chapter IX

M48A3 TANK EXPLODES A 750-POUND BOMB SET UP AS A MINE. Turret was hurled from tank, which was blown out of its tracks.

[archy]

Other countries in the world have built good fighting vehicles..Is there anything already developed that is better and cheaper than the MRAP ?...

The Huntsville, Alabama prototype *Alabama Slammer*, combining the aluminum armored body of the Vietnam-era M113 personnel carrier on the chassis of a military 10-ton truck comes to mind.

If so, why didn’t the Pentagon buy these?..

No positions for program officers to take as civilian jobs after they retire. DOD contractors can offer this, and so can foreign builders [as sales or tech reps] but not already-funded DOD programs. So home-built solutions are discouraged, even when they're saving lives.

[neutronsgalore]

“Humvees or rather their manufacturers and others with a vested beneficial interest in them have a hand in this...........”

It’s pitiful that it even took until 2005 for the request for MRAPs to be made. In less than a year after the invasion it was obvious that the Humvees were inadequate and at least a short-term response using M113’s would’ve saved quite a few lives. At least until widespread use of EFP-IED’s.

[billmor]

You’re right..good point...Thank you.

[Myrddin]

The vehicles cost $1 million each. The "stimulus" program just squandered $200 billion to buy votes from the bottom 50% that don't pay any taxes. If money can be coughed up for such frivolity, we clearly have enough to purchase a necessary upgrade for our troops.