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When Diversity Training Goes Awry | By Jamal Watson
DIVERSE: Issues in Higher Education ^ | January 24, 2008 | Jamal Watson

Posted on 01/23/2008 8:01:40 PM PST by Lumbertonman

When Diversity Training Goes Awry

by Jamal Watson Jan 24, 2008, 17:00

When Diversity Training Goes Awry Done incorrectly, what should be a useful exercise can and has backfired on some colleges and universities.

By Jamal Watson

Initially, Courtney Halligan, a first-year student at the University of Delaware, was not opposed to attending a diversity training session that was required of all incoming freshmen. In fact, the 18-year-old New Jersey native assumed that the experience would be an opportunity for her to learn more about students from different backgrounds.

It didn’t take long for Halligan to change her mind.

Dr. Marie Amey-Taylor, director of learning and development for Temple University’s human resources department, conducts a creative problem-solving session with faculty. She recommends that institutions conduct a climate assessment on campus before doing any diversity training. In one-on-one and group sessions conducted in the dormitories by resident assistants, Halligan and dozens of other White students complained that they were made to feel like racists. She adds that they were blamed for the legacy of racism that Blacks and other minority groups have endured through the years.

Meanwhile, other students expressed anger that they were encouraged to talk openly about their sexuality, and some gay students said that they even felt pressured to publicly out themselves.

“I was personally offended,” says Halligan, who is majoring in communications. “I was angered when a document was used in the training that stated that ‘all people of European descent are racist.’ When I attempted to express my opinion against such statements, I was silenced.”

In response to complaints by students like Halligan, and pressure from the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), a Philadelphia-based civil liberties advocacy group that monitors freedom of speech issues on campuses across the country, the university decided last semester to suspend the controversial program.

“Our concern was not the substance of the program but the way that it was administered,” says Samantha Harris, director of legal and public advocacy for FIRE. “It crossed the line from education to indoctrination.”

In a message to the community that was posted on the school’s Web site last November, University of Delaware President Patrick T. Harker explained his rationale for suspending the program. “There are questions about [the program’s] practices that must be addressed, and there are reasons for concern that the actual purpose is not being fulfilled,” Harker wrote.

Dr. Michael Gilbert, the school’s vice president for student life, says that a campus committee has been formed to strategize on ways to revamp the program for next year and that diversity education remains a priority at the state university. “The university had good intentions in initiating a program to teach students to be tolerant of those who are different from them, but the way the program was run was unacceptable,” says Halligan.

The debacle at UD is the latest embarrassing incident in which diversity training has backfired, possibly causing more harm than good and alienating students in the process. Diversity experts point to these examples as cause for college officials across the nation to re-examine and reform their own campus diversity training programs.

The major problem, experts agree, is that there is no uniformity in training, and some individuals who call themselves diversity trainers have received little or no instruction at all in facilitating discussions on sensitive issues such as race, class, gender and sexual orientation. Additionally, no independent agency exists that has the authority to certify or sanction trainers, leaving the task to colleges and universities to weed through résumés to figure out if those applying to conduct the trainings are indeed qualified. Mauricio Velásquez, President, The Diversity Training Group

“This leads to great variance across the board in terms of the type of training that is done and the philosophy behind the training,” says Dr. Marie Amey-Taylor, director of learning and development in the human resources department at Temple University.

Some trainers facilitate around diversity issues with the goal of raising social justice issues, while others may use diversity training to focus on behavior modification or ensuring that a college or university is in compliance with Equal Employment Opportunity Commission regulations.

Amey-Taylor, who has been a diversity trainer for more than 30 years, mainly conducts workshops and training for faculty and staff at Temple and at other colleges and universities across the country. In her work, she uses a variety of exercises and processing models to help participants confront their own biases and prejudicial behavior.

“If not done correctly, these sessions are not only dangerous, but can be destructive,” says Amey-Taylor, who believes that diversity training sessions involving hot-button issues should be facilitated by someone who has years of experience and cannot be left to student resident assistants who may have received their training in an hours-long session.

“This is not customer service work,” says Amey-Taylor, whose dissertation, “Diversity Trainers: Personal Profiles, Paradigms and Practices,” addresses the issue of preparedness within the field. “My feeling is that this is one of those topical areas that require a high level of skill. You can’t expect a person to be good on their feet. They have to be very skillful.”

But in an effort to save money, more colleges and universities have resorted to hiring outside diversity trainers to conduct the initial training of residential life staff, but have then used their own student leaders to carry out the trainings on the general student population. Many diversity practitioners argue that these types of training-to-training programs have proven unsuccessful.

And even when some colleges contract to bring in a professional trainer, the tactics used by the individual have sometimes caused great concern on campus. For example, in 2006, Wilkes University, located in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., fired the school’s multicultural affairs coordinator after a diversity consultant hired to conduct a training session called one student of Indian descent a terrorist. Other students were allegedly made to hurl derogatory slurs at each other in an effort to take away the negative sting of the words.

“I am embarrassed when people in our field get on their soapbox and further polarize students with this blame and shame game,” says Mauricio Velásquez, who is president of The Diversity Training Group, a Northern Virginia-based organization that conducts trainings for colleges, universities and corporations. “To blame White students for the wrongs of their forefathers doesn’t work. We’re in the business of unifying, not dividing.”

Velásquez and Amey-Taylor recommend that colleges and universities who are looking to hire outside diversity consultants scrutinize the résumés and references of candidates and create a checklist that asks questions such as: “What is your philosophy on diversity education?” and “How do you define diversity?” They also suggest individuals explain the types of exercises and activities that they use when they facilitate sessions.

Experts also argue that some colleges mistakenly believe that they can train students to confront racial prejudice, homophobia, ageism, sexism and other biases in a two- or three-day session that lasts for just a few hours.

“Diversity training needs to be ongoing. You can’t do it one time,” says Jane Elliott, a diversity trainer who is sometimes referred to as the “foremother” of diversity training, in part because of the “Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes” exercise that she conducted on a group of third-grade students in the 1960s. This now-famous exercise labeled participants as inferior or superior based solely upon the color of their eyes and exposed them to the experience of being a minority.

“What happens is that so many colleges do diversity training once a year and they figure that it’s taken care of and that they’ve done their job,” says Elliott. “But we don’t teach American literature for one hour and expect students to know it for the rest of their lives. It has to be an ongoing process.”

Amey-Taylor agrees. “We didn’t learn all of our isms overnight, and we cannot unlearn or modify all of our isms within three hours.”

Elliott and others argue that colleges should implement a year-long class where students regularly challenge their own biases in a safe environment that is facilitated by expert trainers and reinforced with readings and lectures.

While some form of diversity training has become common on most college campuses over the last decade, it is often implemented in response to a polarizing incident on campus, like the discovery of a noose, a swastika or anti-gay epithets scribbled across a bathroom stall.

Last year, several colleges mandated diversity training after a series of incidents involving themed parties at which White students dressed up in blackface and partygoers perpetuated racial stereotypes by carrying 40-ounce bottles of malt liquor and wearing Afro wigs, necklaces with large medallions and name tags bearing traditionally Black and Hispanic names.

“Too often the training that is done is a knee-jerk reaction to something that has happened and is reactive rather than proactive,” says Amey-Taylor, adding that every college and university should conduct an assessment that examines the climate on campus before any diversity training session is conducted. Amey-Taylor says that college officials should create a set of goals for the session to benefit all students.

They should also keep in mind that diversity training should fulfill the school’s larger goal of recognizing and respecting diversity at all levels, including the enhancement of minority faculty and staff on campus. She says that top-level managers should be rewarded or held accountable for their commitment to such practices.

“There has to be a commitment by the organization that includes diversity competency in its performance management systems,” says Amey-Taylor.

Amey-Taylor who is part of an improvisational theater group made up of a half-dozen diversity trainers, has found the use of theater to be an effective vehicle to allow “actors to do and say those things that people can’t do.” Her troupe has performed across the world.

“If we define diversity in its broadest context, it allows conversations to include similarities and differences and allows everyone to feel comfortable and uncomfortable in that dialogue,” says Amey-Taylor. “If you start with the premise that diversity education is essential to being a whole human being, everyone can benefit.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diversity Training Tips From the Experts

• Before any diversity training sessions begin, college officials should first conduct an assessment that examines the campus climate. • College officials should create a set of goals to determine the purpose for the sessions and the benefits for students/staff. • When interviewing diversity consultants, college officials should ask, “What is your philosophy on diversity education?” and “How do you define diversity?” • Ask diversity consultants to explain the types of exercises and activities that they use when they facilitate sessions. • Consider implementing a year-long class for students to regularly challenge their own biases in a safe environment that is facilitated by expert trainers.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Delaware
KEYWORDS: diversity; diversityeducation; highereducation; homosexualagenda; leftismoncampus
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When Diversity Training Goes Awry

by Jamal Watson Jan 24, 2008, 17:00 When Diversity Training Goes Awry Done incorrectly, what should be a useful exercise can and has backfired on some colleges and universities.

By Jamal Watson Initially, Courtney Halligan, a first-year student at the University of Delaware, was not opposed to attending a diversity training session that was required of all incoming freshmen. In fact, the 18-year-old New Jersey native assumed that the experience would be an opportunity for her to learn more about students from different backgrounds.

It didn’t take long for Halligan to change her mind.

Dr. Marie Amey-Taylor, director of learning and development for Temple University’s human resources department, conducts a creative problem-solving session with faculty. She recommends that institutions conduct a climate assessment on campus before doing any diversity training. In one-on-one and group sessions conducted in the dormitories by resident assistants, Halligan and dozens of other White students complained that they were made to feel like racists. She adds that they were blamed for the legacy of racism that Blacks and other minority groups have endured through the years.

Meanwhile, other students expressed anger that they were encouraged to talk openly about their sexuality, and some gay students said that they even felt pressured to publicly out themselves.

“I was personally offended,” says Halligan, who is majoring in communications. “I was angered when a document was used in the training that stated that ‘all people of European descent are racist.’ When I attempted to express my opinion against such statements, I was silenced.”

In response to complaints by students like Halligan, and pressure from the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), a Philadelphia-based civil liberties advocacy group that monitors freedom of speech issues on campuses across the country, the university decided last semester to suspend the controversial program.

“Our concern was not the substance of the program but the way that it was administered,” says Samantha Harris, director of legal and public advocacy for FIRE. “It crossed the line from education to indoctrination.”

In a message to the community that was posted on the school’s Web site last November, University of Delaware President Patrick T. Harker explained his rationale for suspending the program. “There are questions about [the program’s] practices that must be addressed, and there are reasons for concern that the actual purpose is not being fulfilled,” Harker wrote.

Dr. Michael Gilbert, the school’s vice president for student life, says that a campus committee has been formed to strategize on ways to revamp the program for next year and that diversity education remains a priority at the state university. “The university had good intentions in initiating a program to teach students to be tolerant of those who are different from them, but the way the program was run was unacceptable,” says Halligan.

The debacle at UD is the latest embarrassing incident in which diversity training has backfired, possibly causing more harm than good and alienating students in the process. Diversity experts point to these examples as cause for college officials across the nation to re-examine and reform their own campus diversity training programs.

The major problem, experts agree, is that there is no uniformity in training, and some individuals who call themselves diversity trainers have received little or no instruction at all in facilitating discussions on sensitive issues such as race, class, gender and sexual orientation. Additionally, no independent agency exists that has the authority to certify or sanction trainers, leaving the task to colleges and universities to weed through résumés to figure out if those applying to conduct the trainings are indeed qualified. Mauricio Velásquez, President, The Diversity Training Group

“This leads to great variance across the board in terms of the type of training that is done and the philosophy behind the training,” says Dr. Marie Amey-Taylor, director of learning and development in the human resources department at Temple University.

Some trainers facilitate around diversity issues with the goal of raising social justice issues, while others may use diversity training to focus on behavior modification or ensuring that a college or university is in compliance with Equal Employment Opportunity Commission regulations.

Amey-Taylor, who has been a diversity trainer for more than 30 years, mainly conducts workshops and training for faculty and staff at Temple and at other colleges and universities across the country. In her work, she uses a variety of exercises and processing models to help participants confront their own biases and prejudicial behavior.

“If not done correctly, these sessions are not only dangerous, but can be destructive,” says Amey-Taylor, who believes that diversity training sessions involving hot-button issues should be facilitated by someone who has years of experience and cannot be left to student resident assistants who may have received their training in an hours-long session.

“This is not customer service work,” says Amey-Taylor, whose dissertation, “Diversity Trainers: Personal Profiles, Paradigms and Practices,” addresses the issue of preparedness within the field. “My feeling is that this is one of those topical areas that require a high level of skill. You can’t expect a person to be good on their feet. They have to be very skillful.”

But in an effort to save money, more colleges and universities have resorted to hiring outside diversity trainers to conduct the initial training of residential life staff, but have then used their own student leaders to carry out the trainings on the general student population. Many diversity practitioners argue that these types of training-to-training programs have proven unsuccessful.

And even when some colleges contract to bring in a professional trainer, the tactics used by the individual have sometimes caused great concern on campus. For example, in 2006, Wilkes University, located in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., fired the school’s multicultural affairs coordinator after a diversity consultant hired to conduct a training session called one student of Indian descent a terrorist. Other students were allegedly made to hurl derogatory slurs at each other in an effort to take away the negative sting of the words.

“I am embarrassed when people in our field get on their soapbox and further polarize students with this blame and shame game,” says Mauricio Velásquez, who is president of The Diversity Training Group, a Northern Virginia-based organization that conducts trainings for colleges, universities and corporations. “To blame White students for the wrongs of their forefathers doesn’t work. We’re in the business of unifying, not dividing.”

Velásquez and Amey-Taylor recommend that colleges and universities who are looking to hire outside diversity consultants scrutinize the résumés and references of candidates and create a checklist that asks questions such as: “What is your philosophy on diversity education?” and “How do you define diversity?” They also suggest individuals explain the types of exercises and activities that they use when they facilitate sessions.

Experts also argue that some colleges mistakenly believe that they can train students to confront racial prejudice, homophobia, ageism, sexism and other biases in a two- or three-day session that lasts for just a few hours.

“Diversity training needs to be ongoing. You can’t do it one time,” says Jane Elliott, a diversity trainer who is sometimes referred to as the “foremother” of diversity training, in part because of the “Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes” exercise that she conducted on a group of third-grade students in the 1960s. This now-famous exercise labeled participants as inferior or superior based solely upon the color of their eyes and exposed them to the experience of being a minority.

“What happens is that so many colleges do diversity training once a year and they figure that it’s taken care of and that they’ve done their job,” says Elliott. “But we don’t teach American literature for one hour and expect students to know it for the rest of their lives. It has to be an ongoing process.”

Amey-Taylor agrees. “We didn’t learn all of our isms overnight, and we cannot unlearn or modify all of our isms within three hours.”

Elliott and others argue that colleges should implement a year-long class where students regularly challenge their own biases in a safe environment that is facilitated by expert trainers and reinforced with readings and lectures.

While some form of diversity training has become common on most college campuses over the last decade, it is often implemented in response to a polarizing incident on campus, like the discovery of a noose, a swastika or anti-gay epithets scribbled across a bathroom stall.

Last year, several colleges mandated diversity training after a series of incidents involving themed parties at which White students dressed up in blackface and partygoers perpetuated racial stereotypes by carrying 40-ounce bottles of malt liquor and wearing Afro wigs, necklaces with large medallions and name tags bearing traditionally Black and Hispanic names.

“Too often the training that is done is a knee-jerk reaction to something that has happened and is reactive rather than proactive,” says Amey-Taylor, adding that every college and university should conduct an assessment that examines the climate on campus before any diversity training session is conducted. Amey-Taylor says that college officials should create a set of goals for the session to benefit all students.

They should also keep in mind that diversity training should fulfill the school’s larger goal of recognizing and respecting diversity at all levels, including the enhancement of minority faculty and staff on campus. She says that top-level managers should be rewarded or held accountable for their commitment to such practices.

“There has to be a commitment by the organization that includes diversity competency in its performance management systems,” says Amey-Taylor.

Amey-Taylor who is part of an improvisational theater group made up of a half-dozen diversity trainers, has found the use of theater to be an effective vehicle to allow “actors to do and say those things that people can’t do.” Her troupe has performed across the world.

“If we define diversity in its broadest context, it allows conversations to include similarities and differences and allows everyone to feel comfortable and uncomfortable in that dialogue,” says Amey-Taylor. “If you start with the premise that diversity education is essential to being a whole human being, everyone can benefit.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diversity Training Tips From the Experts

• Before any diversity training sessions begin, college officials should first conduct an assessment that examines the campus climate. • College officials should create a set of goals to determine the purpose for the sessions and the benefits for students/staff. • When interviewing diversity consultants, college officials should ask, “What is your philosophy on diversity education?” and “How do you define diversity?” • Ask diversity consultants to explain the types of exercises and activities that they use when they facilitate sessions. • Consider implementing a year-long class for students to regularly challenge their own biases in a safe environment that is facilitated by expert trainers.

1 posted on 01/23/2008 8:01:42 PM PST by Lumbertonman
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To: Lumbertonman

I was told in diversity training that, while working at Toys R Us, I was racist to expect the managers to converse in English. I was also told that it was my responsibility to learn Spanish.

Funny... that wasn’t on the job description.


2 posted on 01/23/2008 8:07:46 PM PST by SlapHappyPappy
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To: Lumbertonman

Welcome. Interesting first post. So good you said it twice...

What’s your “opinion” on the article?


3 posted on 01/23/2008 8:08:23 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Lumbertonman

Nazi tactics being used at liberal universities? I’m shocked! ReEducation camps are alive and well.


4 posted on 01/23/2008 8:10:30 PM PST by Ron in Acreage (Romney/Watts 2008)
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To: Lumbertonman
Diversity Training Tips From the Experts

Throw the whole program into the circular file and get back to educating the kids.

5 posted on 01/23/2008 8:10:47 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Lumbertonman
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
and the RATS, take another one in the...............HA ha!!!

6 posted on 01/23/2008 8:13:21 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: Lumbertonman
Diversity trainers and university administrators (and professors, to be sure) are professionals, are they not?

Well, they call themselves so, at any rate.

Good. The remedy here is clear, and will do one heck of a lot to deter/stop charades such as ''diversity training'', which of course is intended and practiced as nothing other than indoctrination. The very concept of having mandatorily to pay to be indoctrinated is indescribably abhorrent in anything remotely resembling a free society.

The remedy? A big fat lawsuit for academic malpractice.

Surprising, when you think about it, that FIRE hasn't already filed such suits.

7 posted on 01/23/2008 8:15:10 PM PST by SAJ
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To: Lumbertonman

Peace be upon you brother. May all your isms be thrown into the chasm of love and forever after will the bluebird of happiness sit upon your brow.


8 posted on 01/23/2008 8:15:22 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (Benedict Arnold was against the Terrorist Surveillance Program)
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To: Cicero

“Diversity Training, from melting pot to sorting bin in one generation”

pssst...”this way, no one need ever learn, assimilate or adopt the principles and values that made America great and we can make it equal to the crappy countries our ancestors fled”


9 posted on 01/23/2008 8:16:39 PM PST by prov1813man (While the one you despise and ridicule works to protect you, those you embrace work to destroy you)
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To: SlapHappyPappy

I would’ve responded that was equally, (or even more so) racist on their part that you should have to assume the responsibility to learn a second language in order to communicate effectively with people living in the US ( a nation that clearly favors the English language over any other for normative business communications).

Go anywhere else in the world and try to make people learn your language to be able to converse with you - that dog won’t hunt!


10 posted on 01/23/2008 8:22:33 PM PST by jurroppi1 (I Know How The DUmmies Cheated The 2007 Weblog Awards!!!)
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To: prov1813man
It would be my thinking that if a student is paying X dollars for the services of being taught knowledge of specific subject matter, that that student can and should opt out of certain "requirements" and "training". In other words, its my dollar, and I get a say in how its spent, etc...

A few lawsuits and actions along those lines might shake up the world of "higher education."

11 posted on 01/23/2008 8:28:36 PM PST by abigkahuna (Step on up folks and see the "Strange Thing" only a thin dollar, babies free)
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To: Lumbertonman
This isn't "diversity training going awry," this is diversity training doing exactly what it is intended to do:

1) attack and demean people who are white, male and/or heterosexual

2) divide people into mutually antagonistic tribes.

That's the real, unspoken lesson of the famed "blue eyes / brown eyes" teacher experiment - how easy it is to turn people against each other by having an authority figure focus relentlessly on their differences.

12 posted on 01/23/2008 8:29:12 PM PST by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Lumbertonman
Additionally, no independent agency exists that has the authority to certify or sanction trainers, leaving the task to colleges and universities to weed through résumés to figure out if those applying to conduct the trainings are indeed qualified. Mauricio Velásquez, President, The Diversity Training Group.

This is kind of amusing, but scary. The HR department at a university is presumably staffed with people who have at least a bachelor's degree. Yet they can't read a resume and interview a candidate to determine if he is qualified for a job. Now they need an agency to prepare a list for them to follow.

In order to respect the literacy challenged, I think they should use a series of pictures to make their hiring decisions, like the picturesin McDonald's for the employees to see what goes on the alleged hamburgers.

13 posted on 01/23/2008 8:29:22 PM PST by sig226 (New additions to the list of democrat criminals - see my profile)
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To: Lumbertonman
“If you start with the premise that diversity education is essential to being a whole human being, everyone can benefit.”

Sorry. I can't start with that premise. Were there no 'whole human being[s]' on the planet until diversity education was invented? How about DaVinci? I think he was a whole human being, and I pretty sure the Vatican didn't make him take a diversity training class before painting the Sistine Chapel. There are far better phrases and words that can be substituted for 'diversity education' in the sentence above, such as 'humility' or 'love' - or even 'breathing'.

14 posted on 01/23/2008 8:35:47 PM PST by vamoose
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To: Lumbertonman
"The university had good intentions in initiating a program to teach students to be tolerant of those who are different from them..."

Doesn't sound like good intentions at all. Sounds quite dictatorial. The author of this statement (some univ. administrator) is using the word "teach" euphemistically. He means: "students are required."

15 posted on 01/23/2008 8:36:42 PM PST by Rudder
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To: Lumbertonman

Speaking from personal experience, having worked in an executive capacity for a large corporation that is also a major diversity proponent, I have observed that diversity training causes a “recoil” reaction. This occurs for several reasons:

1. The statistics quoted in such training are simply false, one-sided and inflated. (i.e. “the percentage of “gays” in the US population, the number of undocumented cases of discrimination against minorities, etc.) Most of the statistics presented were easily refuted with five minutes of research on the internet. Mature adults subjected to diversity training see through these attempts at propaganda and as a result of exposure, question the credibility of any information coming from these programs.

2. The programs focus on obscuring individual identities and promoting the concept of “groupness”. While perhaps at some levels, people prefer to be belong and engage in collective behavior, most members of the management class have gotten where they are through individual distinction and prefer to see others as individuals rather than as members of groups.

3. Diversity training often directly conflicts with Christian beliefs. For example, many diversity objectives seek to encourage overt promotion of homosexual behavior, in some cases even setting goals for placing business with homosexual owned businesses, similar to the more familiar minority/woman owned business enterprise (M/WBE) purchasing programs.

4. Much of diversity training has an embedded undercurrent of socialistic redistribution, secular materialism, and all an “religions are essentially the same” philosophy that runs counter to economic capitalism, moral behavior and mature faith. Managers who do not share beliefs in socialism, secularism and a vague world religion feel intimidated by these programs, develop a strong distrust for active participation in anything that smacks of diversity, and generally engage in passive aggressive behaviors to resist the imposition of these philosophies on their functional areas.

In summary, diversity programs tend to unravel the trust and openness of organizations, resulting in reduced morale, damaged ethics and compromised performance. But then again, how is that different from any other component of liberalism?


16 posted on 01/23/2008 8:40:06 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Rudder

the universities, like corporations could really care less about any color other than green. these classes are safety mechanisms to ward off lawsuits, plain and simple.

when it comes to diversity, they really mean firing/not accepting white men.


17 posted on 01/23/2008 8:43:28 PM PST by bluedressman
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To: bluedressman

.....and the white men have most of the guns.


18 posted on 01/23/2008 8:48:20 PM PST by july4thfreedomfoundation (Change.....that's what we will have left in our pockets if a Democrat gets elected president!)
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To: Huber

Your observations are most illuminating. Thanks.


19 posted on 01/23/2008 8:49:44 PM PST by vamoose
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To: Lumbertonman

Welcome aboard, you are member number 293,771.

Welcome aboard, you are member number 293,771.


20 posted on 01/23/2008 8:51:19 PM PST by Graybeard58 ( Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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