Posted on 01/12/2008 7:36:39 PM PST by neverdem
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I subsequently attended the University of Chicago (before Obama) and went to Regenstein library to look at Dennis' book (there weren't any available to me in small-town Midwest). The political science-economics section of Regenstein was then in the sub-basement(!) but I found the library copy; it read a lot like Ralph Nader. But next to it on the shelf was another work by the same author, "Is Capitalism Doomed?", published in 1930. Inside the front cover, someone had pasted a pocket and in said pocket was an old, yellowed copy the The Daily Worker (the official paper of the US Communist Party). On the front page of that issue, there was a rave review of Dennis' work by none other than Eugene V. Debs, the then perrenial Presidential candidate of the CPUSA.
Fascism and Communism were never true enemies; they were alweays competitors. Hitler called his system "National Socialism"; Stalin called his "Socialism in One Country".
There ain't a dime's worth of difference between the two; the only difference is who gets to rule. The rule will be the same in either case.
Fascism and Communism are like the Sunni and the Shiites, they kill each other because they are intense rivals.
I heard Goldberg on Dennis Miller Friday, I believe, and he said fascism got the negative end of the connotative stick from Stalin.
And since Hitler attacked Stalin, and Hitler declared war on the US, and that made Stalin our ally...
I’ve always been a bit perplexed at how a socialist political party (the Nazis) can be considered “right wing.”
I’ve had extended debates with people on this, and they always claim that, although the Nazis called themselves socialists, they didn’t “govern” as socialists.
So what? Communists have never followed through on their promises either. They’re very good at the “taking away” part, but they never seem to get around to the “giving back” (redistribution) part. Does that mean that are not communists? Of course not.
I get very annoyed by the know-nothings on the Left who compare Bush to Hitler. Bush is at least trying to fight the modern incarnation of Nazism in Islamofascism. Those morons are the ones couldn’t care less about the possibility of another holocaust. They’re the ones who are actively or passively promoting the modern version of Nazism by trying to sabotage all efforts to stop it.
Ive always been a bit perplexed at how a socialist political party (the Nazis) can be considered right wing.The Nazis weren't socialist any more than the people's democratic republic of North Korean is democratic or a republic.
Ive had extended debates with people on this, and they always claim that, although the Nazis called themselves socialists, they didnt govern as socialists.
So what? Communists have never followed through on their promises either. Theyre very good at the taking away part, but they never seem to get around to the giving back (redistribution) part. Does that mean that are not communists? Of course not.
I get very annoyed by the know-nothings on the Left who compare Bush to Hitler. Bush is at least trying to fight the modern incarnation of Nazism in Islamofascism. Those morons are the ones couldnt care less about the possibility of another holocaust. Theyre the ones who are actively or passively promoting the modern version of Nazism by trying to sabotage all efforts to stop it.
“And it is true that Mussolini and Hitler spoke of their disdain for liberalism many times, and there are many quotes to that effect. But guess what? These two European statesmen were speaking in wait for it! a European context where liberalism generally means limited government: classical or Manchester liberalism. They were most emphatically not talking about progressivism or socialism, which are the correct label for American liberalism and/or the American left (as I demonstrate at length in my book).”
Golberg’s point is more clearly made at the following site :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Here’s a quote:
“Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. Happily they did not capture it in Europe, and were glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.”
I think the nomenclature is a residue of WW2. Soviet propagandists at the time referred to the National Socialists (Nazis) as "fascists", to differentiate their own Soviet Socialism. Modern Leftists have continued the rhetoric.
Also, since communism is as Left as anyone can go, anyone who is not a communist is (from the communists' point of view) to the right, hence, nazis are "right wing."
“Also, since communism is as Left as anyone can go, anyone who is not a communist is (from the communists’ point of view) to the right, hence, nazis are “right wing.”
Well said.
I see the primary difference between communists and fascists in the economic sphere and how both treat private property. Fascists were smart enough to allow private property and businesses to continue provided these businesses used their property to carry out the will of the state, as defined by the state. Thus the fascist/socialist state plodded on, guided by the hand of experienced capitalists, even showing economic growth. This issue is covered extensively in the 1939 book “The Vampire Economy.”
On the other hand, communists seized private property and gave it to clueless party members who had no idea on how to run a business, whether a farm or factory. Thus, the communist soviet union collapsed economically and was constantly plagued by shortages. We see that result of communism today in Zimbabwe.
So yes, many liberals are fascists. The control of private property under so-called environmental law is one aspect of fascism in America today and is endemic and grossly harmful. And the vast majority of so-called liberals completely favor this fascist government control.
It’s my belief that 70 years ago so-called environmentalists would have been standing on street corners shouting “Sieg Heil!”
Jonah didn’t have a good day at the Heritage Foundation. He was rushing and making little sense. I think the idea that Fascism is of the left has a firm premise but why be so jittery?
“The Nazis weren’t socialist any more than the people’s democratic republic of North Korean is democratic or a republic.”
The Nazis were *elected* on a platform of National Socialism. As far as I know, the leader of North Korea was never elected. That’s a huge difference. Whether the Nazis were really socialist in their hearts is largely irrelevant. The point is that they used the appeal of socialism to gain power.
By the way, check out this little piece by Goebbels:
Why Are We Socialists?
by Joseph Goebbels
We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state.
Socialism is the doctrine of liberation for the working class. It promotes the rise of the fourth class and its incorporation in the political organism of our Fatherland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present slavery and the regaining of German freedom. Socialism therefore is not merely a matter of the oppressed class, but a matter for everyone, for freeing the German people from slavery is the goal of contemporary policy. Socialism gains its true form only through a total combat brotherhood with the forward-striving energies of a newly awakened nationalism. Without nationalism it is nothing, a phantom, a mere theory, a castle in the sky, a book. With it it is everything, the future, freedom, the Fatherland!
The sin of liberal thinking was to overlook socialism’s nation-building strengths, thereby allowing its energies to go in anti-national directions. The sin of Marxism was to degrade socialism into a question of wages and the stomach, putting it in conflict with the state and its national existence. An understanding of both these facts leads us to a new sense of socialism, which sees its nature as nationalistic, state-building, liberating and constructive.
The bourgeois is about to leave the historical stage. In its place will come the class of productive workers, the working class, that has been up until today oppressed. It is beginning to fulfill its political mission. It is involved in a hard and bitter struggle for political power as it seeks to become part of the national organism. The battle began in the economic realm; it will finish in the political. It is not merely a matter of pay, not only a matter of the number of hours worked in a day-though we may never forget that these are an essential, perhaps even the most significant part of the socialist platform-but it is much more a matter of incorporating a powerful and responsible class in the state, perhaps even to make it the dominant force in the future politics of the Fatherland. The bourgeois does not want to recognize the strength of the working class. Marxism has forced it into a straitjacket that will ruin it. While the working class gradually disintegrates in the Marxist front, bleeding itself dry, the bourgeois and Marxism have agreed on the general lines of capitalism, and see their task now to protect and defend it in various ways, often concealed.
We are socialists because we see the social question as a matter of necessity and justice for the very existence of a state for our people, not a question of cheap pity or insulting sentimentality. The worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces. We have no intention of begging for that right. Incorporating him in the state organism is not only a critical matter for him, but for the whole nation. The question is larger than the eight-hour day. It is a matter of forming a new state consciousness that includes every productive citizen. Since the political powers of the day are neither willing nor able to create such a situation, socialism must be fought for. It is a fighting slogan both inwardly and outwardly. It is aimed domestically at the bourgeois parties and Marxism at the same time, because both are sworn enemies of the coming workers’ state. It is directed abroad at all powers that threaten our national existence and thereby the possibility of the coming socialist national state.
Socialism is possible only in a state that is united domestically and free internationally. The bourgeois and Marxism are responsible for failing to reach both goals, domestic unity and international freedom. No matter how national and social these two forces present themselves, they are the sworn enemies of a socialist national state.
We must therefore break both groups politically. The lines of German socialism are sharp, and our path is clear.
We are against the political bourgeois, and for genuine nationalism!
We are against Marxism, but for true socialism!
We are for the first German national state of a socialist nature!
We are for the National Socialist German Workers Party!
[End of Nazi rant in favor of socialism]
“Also, since communism is as Left as anyone can go, anyone who is not a communist is (from the communists’ point of view) to the right, hence, nazis are “right wing.””
True. But the problem is that this “point of view” has been smuggled into the lexicon of modern American politics. Why should we take the “point of view” of communism as our own? We aren’t communists yet, are we?
This bogus “point of view” is the reason that loonies on the Left get away with comparing Bush to Hitler when they are the ones essentially protecting the new Nazism in the form of Islamofascism.
The main idea behind socialism (and communism, for that matter) is that the government really “owns” everything and decides who gets what. The difference between the two is really just a matter of the degree of aggressiveness with which the government redistributes wealth.
The idea behind classical economic liberalism, on the other hand, is that economics is based on voluntary transactions, and you really own what you earn in the free market — even if it’s more than some think you should have. The Nazis were certainly not classical economic liberals. They were socialists plain and simple. If you can’t see that, you simply refuse to open your eyes.
Whether that is based on “Hegelian political philosophy” may be of historical interest, but it is more or less irrelevant otherwise.
If the Nazis were “right wing,” then it is in some sense that is completely contrary to the modern Leftist notion of “right wing = capitalist pig.”
nice post thank you
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