Posted on 01/08/2008 4:09:13 PM PST by tantiboh
Mitt Romney is facing an unexpected challenge in Iowa from rival Mike Huckabee, who has enjoyed a groundswell of support from religious voters, particularly evangelical Christians wary of the clean-cut former Massachusetts governor because of his Mormon religion.
The common worry among evangelicals is that if Romney were to capture the White House, his presidency would give legitimacy to a religion they believe is a cult. Since the LDS church places heavy emphasis on proselytizing -- there are 53,000 LDS missionaries worldwide -- many mainstream Christians are afraid that Mormon recruiting efforts would increase and that LDS membership rolls would swell.
...
THE ONLY PROBLEM with those fears is that they don't add up. Evangelicals may be surprised to learn that the growth of church membership in Massachusetts slowed substantially during Romney's tenure as governor. In fact, one could make the absurdly simplistic argument that Romney was bad for Mormonism.
...
ONE WAY TO GAUGE what might happen under a President Romney would be to look at what happened during the period of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games. Held in Salt Lake City, they were dubbed the "Mormon Olympics."
...
Despite all the increased attention, worldwide the Church grew only slightly, and in fact in the year leading up to the games the total number of congregations fell. Overall, from 2000 to 2004, there was a 10.9 percent increase in memberships and a 3.6 percent increase in congregations.
...
The LDS church is likely to continue its current modest-but-impressive growth whether or not Romney wins the White House. Perhaps the only real worry for evangelicals is that, if elected, the former Massachusetts governor will demonstrate to Americans that Mormons don't have horns.
Carrie Sheffield, a member of the LDS Church, is a writer living in Washington, D.C.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
Thanks for the reply. My experience has been more along the lines of well behaved Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, and Seventh Day Adventist making visits in residential communities. Very low key. At the office, one Baptist I know is certainly ready to speak if encouraged! I might be able to remember something negative in a movie, or imagine a negative stereotype. My real experiences have been good. But even bad words would only be words.
I just know the first time I heard these street preachers I felt sick. I just wanted to leave. The second I was thinking they might get their message across better if they told biblical stories while using dancing vegetables.
Please read the words explaining the tables. The exit numbers were extrapolated from the information that was actually given by the LDS Church. You take the number of new converts add it to the number of Children of record, add those numbers to the previous years membership, and you will see the number of “exits” when you subtract the new years membership numbers.
These exit numbers are not given by the church and so they lack any explanation at all. Logic would tell us that people die (yes, even Mormons) and so the exit numbers would enclude the approximate .6% (adjusted for a higher birth rate among Mormons) deaths. In some years there were NO exits (no deaths either) in fact, the dead would have had to resurrect since not only were there no exits, but the membership numbers, plus the new converts, plus the new birth added up to LESS than the total number given....where did these people come from.
I don’t need your analysis DU. You should think about what your Church is not telling you, and how they misrepresent the truth. Then come back and spin it for us like a good Mormon apologist.
To disprove the assertion that was being refuted, YES.
As colorcountry points out in post 187, some of the data seem pretty suspicious. Since you introduced personal ancedotes, I'll use mine. I would question the exit numbers reported by the LDS Church since I know two people from wards in different states who had to hire attorneys to get their names removed from the LDS membership roles. Neither had attended LDS services for years.
“Carrie Sheffield, a member of the LDS Church, is a writer living in Washington, D.C.”
Oh man, since when has a tainted source like that EVER been acceptable to any of the Mormon apologists? ? ?
The Fact is that Mitt is by the nature of the situation a proselytizer for Mormonism, it is the elephant in the living room. One Can argue whether the outcome will be good or bad for Mormonism, but it is damn hard to argue that a non-trivial portion of the base will be consumed by the issue for the next 8 years IF Romney was elected.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.It's black and white what Jesus says makes you a Christian (not necessarily a good Christian, but a Christian), where does anyone get off deciding they can tell Jesus who he will call his own? There are four main sects of Buddhism, they don't go around saying the others aren't Buddhist, Hindus don't call other Hindus pagans Taoist don't argue over who's ancestor is better, it's just the Christians who want to say others are not of their faith. Faith; that is what it comes down to who do you believe in. We believe in Jesus Christ, born of Mary, healed the sick, cleansed the lepers, walked on water Crucified on the Cross, that Jesus, yet some want to say we believe in a different Jesus than they do. well if they do not believe in that Jesus, but some guy from Mexico they could be right. If they are saying that because of our different beliefs about this same Jesus, then they are being disingenuous, playing loose with the truth, or have a casual relationship with reality, take your pick.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
"You, of course, are freed from the shackles of service and goodwill. You don’t need them. ... I would suggest you join the fight of Mormonism against the forces of evil; but I understand that you are reticent to do so. Those would be works, and for you, works are not necessary." tantiboh
First and foremost, why would you make such a specious assertion?... Because you are confused regarding 'works of righteousness'. Freed from good works? Hardly! And good works are not some form of shackles, especially since doing for others brings such a sense of joy at being useful for the benefit of others! [It is one of the evidences of His Spirit indwelling because it is an outward manifestation of what He taught, that the first shall be last, to be head of be servant to, etc.] But you're right, I don't need them to be worthy of His Grace because I could never be worthy of such a gift ... you see, 'being worthy' is another way, the Mormon way of saying 'earn' without using the specific word. Yet for the past thirty years such works have 'squeezed out' to the glory of His presence, not my worthiness.
Had the thief on the cross lived longer I have zero doubt that his life would have evidenced many 'works', wrought not by the old man dead spirit energy which directed his life prior to trusting Jesus, but wrought by the indwelling presence of God's Spirit within his once dead human spirit. That is what the New testament teaching for 'works of righteousness which he has ordained for us to walk in' means. In that sense, James nailed it: if you claim to have The Spirit in your human spirit, but you have no works wrought by His presence, your claim is dead.
[Here's an aside: If a Christian or a seeker of the Lord has ever been with a 'set-apart-one' (a saint in Paul's teaching) who has suffered a tremendous loss, such as the death of a child, a glow of spiritual origin is discernable. It's not like shining a flashlight on their face or down on the top of their head, but it is a spiritual glow. The Christian's spirit discerns the out-shining of Peace that passeth all understanding, as that Saint went through the suffering without losing a grasp of God's love for him or her during that loss. That glow of His presence within is noticeable to those born again because there is a spiritual 'resonance' which happens in the presence of one being sustained by His Peace within. That resonance at a spiritual level is the result of His Presence within the sufferer AND the flow of love from the observant Christian toward the sufferer!]
The fundamental problem with Mormon explanation attached to James's passage regarding works and faith is that Mormons see a striving to become worthy of the gift of Grace in Christ Jesus, and you evidence this with your citation of the 'good works' which you do ... daily one would presume else you would not feel worthy.
If the exercise were to compare works in order to find credulity for a belief system, the works of Buddhists and Baha'is are equal to or greater than the works of Mormons. These works are not evidence of the indwelling Spirit of God but they can be painted as being such and are by the post modernists who wish to obfuscate the real lesson in the tension between James and Paul. James said show me your 'faithe' by your works else you are not exercising faithe in Jesus because His life is not coming out through you. Oh, to be sure, you can imitate that evidence, as Jesus taught with the story of the good Samaritan. And that story too is misused by post modernists, to try and show that even the rejected are acceptable to God if they do good things. The story was given to illustrate that the state of the world was 'lostness' and that even the Samaritan could appear better than the Rabbi, if measurement is solely done on the 'works of goodness'.
The Bible teaches clearly that God puts His LIFE in the regenerate man/woman/girl/boy, as the earnest of the fuller inheritance to come as illustrated by and through the resurrection of Jesus, the first fruits of a new and radical LIFE of physicality AND soulishness that cannot be corrupted. Jesus taught that some will come to Him in the where/when and claim they too are righteous because of the marvelous works they have done (even healings, and demons cast out in His name, etc). Because they have not the Son in their human spirit, He says to them 'depart from me, I never knew you.' Such folks would have lived their earthly lives believing they had a right to His righteousness 'after all that they had done.' But just as the natural body derives its energy for life from the processes begun at the 'big bang', the spiritual derives its energy from the Son who dwells within and cannot be manufacture by 'all that you can do.'
That’s great...
The Bar association retains its established right to define itself by the doctrines it established.
I can still claim to be a lawyer. That doesn't make me a lawyer.
Very good description. Thanks.
Nor "pressure" nor even "persuasion." It looked like Mormons talking to Mormons about questions of principle. Is this un-Constitutional now?
Go ahead and post more links. I'm interested.
ping-a-ling ... if this sort of thing interests you. [BTW, keep your fork.]
Start here, I’m sure you know how to use this valuable resource.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
It has escaped your dead soul that what the Nicean Creed says is actually based upon and substantiated in the Bible and by Historical analyses, unlike the fabrications by Joe Smith which are not substantiated by any archaeological or genetic proof, are contrary to and thus contradictory to the teachings of the Bible, and are the utterings of a peepstone false prophet who used divination trickery to fool farmers in upstate New York and then to fool God-fearing people who wanted to believe his lies and fabrications so much that they swallowed his excuses for polygamy, fraud, and his degeneracies.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.I confess that I believe in Jesus Christ, I have prayed about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and received an answer from God that They are true and that Jesus died for my sins on the cross at Calvary. I further testify that all can receive this witness of Christ through the process described in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Neither is the word Trinity, So?
While the word Trinity may not appear in the Bible, it is clearly revealed by our Lord:
I and my Father are one. (John 10:30, KJV)
The fact that many in the crowd wanted to stone the Lord for this statement indicates that He very clearly meant what he said.
And He clarifies it again here:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:19, KJV)
Notice here that it DOES NOT say names, it says name, this indicates that They are One.
Right, like the Nicene Creed which was created by a pagan emperor to make "Christianity" more palatable to pagans, right.
Another myth, the Nicene Creed was approved in 381 A.D., by this time Christianity was already the dominant religion in the Roman Empire and the Empire itself was in chaos anyway. In other words, the Church was far more dominant than the weakened Empire. However, aside from its clear illustration of the Trinity, what exactly do you disagree with in the Nicene Creed.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.