Posted on 01/08/2008 4:09:13 PM PST by tantiboh
Mitt Romney is facing an unexpected challenge in Iowa from rival Mike Huckabee, who has enjoyed a groundswell of support from religious voters, particularly evangelical Christians wary of the clean-cut former Massachusetts governor because of his Mormon religion.
The common worry among evangelicals is that if Romney were to capture the White House, his presidency would give legitimacy to a religion they believe is a cult. Since the LDS church places heavy emphasis on proselytizing -- there are 53,000 LDS missionaries worldwide -- many mainstream Christians are afraid that Mormon recruiting efforts would increase and that LDS membership rolls would swell.
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THE ONLY PROBLEM with those fears is that they don't add up. Evangelicals may be surprised to learn that the growth of church membership in Massachusetts slowed substantially during Romney's tenure as governor. In fact, one could make the absurdly simplistic argument that Romney was bad for Mormonism.
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ONE WAY TO GAUGE what might happen under a President Romney would be to look at what happened during the period of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games. Held in Salt Lake City, they were dubbed the "Mormon Olympics."
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Despite all the increased attention, worldwide the Church grew only slightly, and in fact in the year leading up to the games the total number of congregations fell. Overall, from 2000 to 2004, there was a 10.9 percent increase in memberships and a 3.6 percent increase in congregations.
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The LDS church is likely to continue its current modest-but-impressive growth whether or not Romney wins the White House. Perhaps the only real worry for evangelicals is that, if elected, the former Massachusetts governor will demonstrate to Americans that Mormons don't have horns.
Carrie Sheffield, a member of the LDS Church, is a writer living in Washington, D.C.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
Since you are a "strong evangelical" perhaps you can tell me what is is that makes one good, moral and righteous in the eyes of God.
A vote FOR Romney is not a vote AGAINST Jesus.
I must say that I don’t find Romney’s being Mormon any
more offensive than Bill Clinton saying he’s a Christian.
Romney’s embrace of Mormonism makes him a far moral
candidate than Carter (Born Again), Kennedy (Catholic) or
Bill Clinton (Episco-World-Church).
A vote FOR Romney is not a vote AGAINST Jesus.
My wife is thinking along these lines. We are not electing a leader of a state religion. However, I see the faith of the individual as way to get a feel for what will guide them in a crisis. Also, I'm concerned about lending credibility to a faith that is odd to say the least.
Where to start with pointing out all the errors and misstatements in your post.
The first paragraph is essentially correct I will only make a minor correction to it.
The Jesus of Christianity left us proof for everything he said and did. He fulfilled OT prophecy. He rose from the dead, which was witnessed by hundreds. He ascended into heaven which was witnessed by his disciples. All the known books of Scripture were written during the Apostolic Era which ended with the death of John. The books that were written were read by other witnesses to the events.
Christians stand on the Rock.
Mormons stand on The Rock and other testimony that Jesus is the Christ.
Your church is based on tablets that were revealed to your founder that gave additional revelation.
There were other credible witnesses who saw and handled these tablets. Their testimony is printed in the front of the book.. They never recanted their testimony even though some left the church and went other directions.
Your church has added to the Scriptures with your BOM, which is another Testament to the divinity of Christ.
The next paragraph is not what the church teaches. There is a scripture in the New Testament that explains the actual teachings of our church. It is found in Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect
We are not so naive to think or profess that we will achieve the goal in this lifetime. We realize that without the gifts given by Christ, it would be impossible to even return to our Father, let alone become perfect as he is.
Since it is an instruction to do more than others, we take it as a goal worth striving for. That we may fall short does not mean that we shouldn’t strive for it.
There, you see, with few minor editing changes, the statement becomes much more accurate. We appreciate your effort.
It is if you are legitimizing a church that claims to be mainstream Christian and really is not Christian.
Right here is were you begin to fall apart. Islam used the same argument when they rewrote the Scriptures that had been in existence for at least 450 years and claimed it was the "new" revelation of God. They also changed who Jesus is and like the Mormons their "new" revelation was centered on the "visions" of one man. However, they never claimed to be Christians.
The Mormons to their credit have generally been a peaceful group and I don't believe have a history of forcing conversions at the end of a sword. That does not make Mormons Christians.
Well, yes, I could. I think, though, it would become a game of semantics. I know where you are trying to lead me, and like I stated before this isn't primarily a theological discussion.
Not that you're really wondering, but if someone stumbles upon this thread, I'd like to clarify:
We are seeking a President who seeks justice for all, has convictions and actions that lead to the same, and pursues policies that create the freedom our Founding Fathers envisioned.
Mitt Romney, in my opinion, is the best man for that job from the current crop of candidates. I happily support him.
I also pray for the man. I wonder how many of his bashers do the same.
I understand those concerns. Though the faith of the leading Democrats is, uh, well....you can fill in your own blanks.
McCain and Giuliani don’t seem to fit the perfect bill either. And Huckabee, though a good moral man, isn’t on the right page regarding the pursuit of the Founding Fathers’ vision of freedom...he really seems to be more a Jimmy Carter type guy.
Just imagine what skilled journalist determined to pour salt into the wounds between Conservative Orthodox Christinaity and Mormonism can do with twistings, attitudes, and assertions like post #1224! There is a whole army of skilled leftists chomping at the bit to exploit the divides in order to get their leftist societal engineering Rodham-rodent and her sexual degenerate amoral husband back into power. The professions by tauntiboo and other Mormonism apologists will be amplified to exploiit the stark contradictions to Orthodox Christianity.
Where is it written that you have the right and obligation to decide what others believe?
The doctrine the Apostle Paul taught to the Apostolic Christians has been changed by writers hundreds of years later to what is taught by orthodox Christian Churches.
Are the Apostolic Christian Church not "Christian"?
That brings to mind the poem "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Call us what you will, we are still followers of Christ and His teachings.
Just quoting you. Funny how some will start something but then don't want other to weigh in.
We are seeking a President who seeks justice for all, has convictions and actions that lead to the same, and pursues policies that create the freedom our Founding Fathers envisioned.
Ditto. That I agree with. 100%
Mitt Romney, in my opinion, is the best man for that job from the current crop of candidates.
You may or may not be right. Generally I can't figure out how people can be undecided on big issues, but in this case I am one of them.
I also pray for the man. I wonder how many of his bashers do the same.
Pointing out a huge heresy isn't the same as bashing. It's the truth. Perhaps you haven't recovered enough from your Democratic past to see that.
“Well, yes, I could. I think, though, it would become a game of semantics.” As very skilled dodge! Simply put, you have zero goodness in God’s eyes on your own. IF you have in the now accept Him as your personal Savior and been born again with His Spirit coming into your human spirit, you are the righteousness of Christ in God’s eyes because The Spirit of Jesus resides within your human spirit rather than the anarchy of Adam. This birth doesn’t happen ‘after all that you can do to be worthy of His Grace.’ Perhaps you are accounting righteousness on the basis of behaviors ... and you know better because Satan is so very skilled at getting ‘good people to do bad things’ ... you hint that you think opposing openly the heresies in Mormonism is just such ‘bad behavior.’
I think you just answered “the question that should have been asked.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
We do not deny there are differences in our doctrine. So what? If we believed exactly like you do, we would belong to your church.
I am happy that it isn't up to you.
I have asked you repeatedly to answer the question I posed to you.
When and how did the doctrine concerning the three persons as believed by the Apostolic Christians, change to what you believe now?
You don't answer, just disappear and appear later bashing someone else.
JO: A vote FOR Romney is not a vote AGAINST Jesus.
WM: It is if you are legitimizing a church that claims to be mainstream Christian and really is not Christian.
JO: We’re voting for POTUS, not for what church is the true church.
The world is going to embrace what they will. The world is more comfortable embracing spirituality rather than the truth.
My choices are...
1. A morally spiritual leader
2. A morally bankrupt leader.
This isn’t rocket surgery!
(wmfights, MHGinTN; Jim Robinson; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Petronski; aMorePerfectUnion; xzins, americanophile; WestSylvanian; DelphiUser; tantiboh; Quix; Das Outsider; Star Traveler;)
Based upon what orthodoxy? Catholic orthodoxy believe protestants are hereitics. Virtually all of them would vote for a protestant.
As I said, you know the context, and you ignore it. Not unexpected.
This does, by the way, place you firmly into the realm of bearing false witness. But, it’s OK, you don’t actually need -works- to be saved. Run with it!
Picking up on the the term "spiritual," would you consider an moral Muslim? A moral Buddhist? Just wondering.
I was rereading my great-grandfather’s autobiography the other day. I wanted to add his testimony to yours.
My great-grandfather was a British settler in South Africa.
He was also a part-time Methodist preacher. He had preached Christianity to some of the tribes in South Africa, sometimes at the risk of his life.
He tells of the coming of Mormon missionaries to South Africa in 1857.
One thing that is interesting is that he mentions the general acknowledgement among his fellow Protestants that the complete church established by Christ while He was on the earth no longer existed, and that, if it were to exist, it would have to be restored. My great-grandfather quotes a letter from one of his friends, which states in part, “we do acknowledge our Church to be a fallen Church, full of error and traditions of men. We know we support hireling priesthood, and are far from the true and ancient Church.”
(If you think about it, this is the whole reason for the very existence of Protestantism. Protestants believed that the church that purported to be the one that Christ established, the Catholic church, had become corrupted. Using the Bible, they made their best efforts to discern what the original doctrine had been. Obviously, they couldn’t all agree, hence the existence of so many different Protestant religions.)
Anyway, my great-grandfather came into contact with the Mormon missionaries, and was given a Book of Mormon, which he read. He wrote, “its pages were full of interest and all its doctrines in strict accordance with Bible truths.”
He studied Mormon doctrine for a year before joining the Church. He wrote the following.
“My mind was full of this wonderful religion, and . . . I seemed filled with a light and knowledge, which illumined every page of the Bible, as text after text flashed into mind.”
“The more I read of these things, the more I studied, the more convinced was I of their truth of this Gospel that had not been taught on earth for some seventeen Centuries, and was now restored to earth. I was still attending Wesleyan meetings, occasionally, preaching. I felt the Holy Sirit, and talked and prayed with such power that the people thought I had got the Renewal of the spirit of the early Methodists, but I advanced nothing new to them, only preaching from the same old Bible.”
“I could not help telling my friends and neighbors of Mormonism, and thus I gained their ill-will. My wife felt very bad to have our friends treat us coldly. So I put all the books on a high shelf, and decided not to read them any more. But the thoughts they had started would not be quieted. At last I pulled the books down again, and once more began to read them. I found them more interesting than ever, and the Lord opened my eyes to see every truth they contained.”
“I was now settled in Queenstown, working at my trade, still investigating “Mormonism.” Among my friends was a Mr. Robert Wall, and many an earnest talk we had. He had been a great Bible student, but the Bible now appeared like a new book to him. He wondered why he had not seen it before in this light. All he had ever read in explanation of the Bible was put in the shade by these books.”
After a year of study, my great-grandparents were baptized. He wrote, “Now we learned what it meant to be shunned by our friends. Many came to debate with me, but found I had the best of them, so they would leave me. One preacher said: “It is no use to talk with you, for you know the Bible from end to end.”
Eventually, the rest of my great-grandparents’ family was baptized, and they, along with other South African converts, including another set of my great-grandparents, came to Utah.
I have been rereading my great-grandfather’s story, because his sentiments mirror the sentiments that I have had all the last year, as I have taught the New Testament in Sunday School. The Book of Mormon and the doctrines of the Restoration take nothing away from the Bible, they illuminate it, and settle fundamental controversies that had plagued Christianity for hundreds of years.
Mormonism does not deny the truths that remain in traditional Christianity, nor deny the witnesses of the Spirit that come to people of good will regarding those truths.
So many of the anti-Mormon posters focus on the Mormon doctrine of the Apostasy, as if that means that we think all other Christians and Christian churches are completely bad. That is surely not the case. The Protestants themselves recognized the corruption of the original doctrine, otherwise there would be no Protestants.
The Apostasy, to us, consists of the introduction of the doctrines of men into the original gospel. The Nicene Creed would be a perfect example, although not the only one. Eventually, this led to the loss of Priesthood authority, which Jesus had, and which he conferred upon his Apostles. We believe that the Priesthood has been restored, and that many “plain and precious things” that were lost through corruption have been restored, including Priesthood ordinances, some of which are hinted at in the Bible, but are not explained.
I’m grateful that my great-grandparents were serious students of the Bible and seekers of truth. I share their testimony that the Church established by Christ has been restored to the earth, bringing additional knowledge and blessings to those that believe on the Savior.
~”You’re in for a big disappointment. Check Elsie’s message history. I’m afraid its spilled over for many years already.”~
Elsie is not an average Christian.
I said that the reasonable Christians are far more prevalent than the bigoted ones for two anecdotal reasons. First, I only know one anti-Mormon bigot in real life, and second, I’ve been involved in apologetics on FR for some time. I know just about all the anti-Mormons here. There are about twenty. A new one pops up once in a while, but not often. On the other hand, I meet more respectable Christians all the time, though they rarely jump into the mud against those bigots who are embarrassing them.
We Mormons have it pretty good. Our attackers are annoyingly vociferous, but small in number.
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