Did Giuliani Really Clean Up Times Square?

AP via CBS News ^ | Dec. 28, 2007 | Staff

[jdm]

Times Square is crammed with tourists, and not just for New Year's Eve. These days, they're eager to gawk at the glittering lights of Broadway and visit attractions like Madame Tussauds Wax Museum and the MTV studios.

But 15 years ago, the place was considered a cesspool, overrun with crime and home to sex shops and peep shows. Drug addicts shot up on the street. Locals avoided the neighborhood.

The man who has taken the credit for revitalizing Times Square is GOP presidential hopeful and former Mayor Rudy Giuliani. He has made Times Square a symbol for how he tamed the evils of an out-of-control city and turned it into a tourist-friendly destination.

"It's called getting things done," he said at a fundraiser this year.

It's not that clear-cut, a closer examination of the Times Square renaissance shows.

While even his critics will say Giuliani deserves praise for his part in redevelopment of the area, the finished product was the culmination of decades of work that came before he was elected, according to lawmakers and urban planners.

"State agencies had plans in place to develop 42nd Street well before Giuliani," said Ethel Sheffer, an urban planning expert who led a quality-of-life study on Times Square during the redevelopment. Any large-scale redevelopment "takes a long time to unfold," she said.

The Times Square plan was in the works during the 1980s, when state officials and then-Mayor Ed Koch used eminent domain to condemn and take control of decrepit buildings.

But there was no legal way to control businesses until the City Council initiated a study during the administration of David Dinkins, who preceded Giuliani as mayor, that would allow them to pass rezoning laws if they could prove sex businesses were harming residential areas.

Walter McCaffrey, a former City Council member, said the idea to rezone wasn't even related to Times Square at first. It started with a neighborhood in Queens near the Queensboro Bridge that had suffered when topless bars and porn shops moved in. After the study, the City Council drew up stricter zoning laws that prohibited sex-oriented theaters, bookstores, massage parlors and dance clubs from operating within 500 feet of homes, houses of worship, schools or one another.

The law passed in 1995 - about two years after Giuliani took office.

By this time, the area was already changing, urban planning experts say. The paced quickened after the legal challenges to the zoning laws were defeated and Giuliani bore down.

Says Charles Millard, a former City Councilman and head of the city's Economic Development Corp: "I drafted the law that allowed us to do this constitutionally when David Dinkins was mayor, but until Rudy became mayor and pushed it through his planning commission, and pushed it through the city, not a thing had happened."

Others say Giuliani was in the right place at the right time, as the economy boomed in the 1990s and shifted toward tourism, real estate and Wall Street. The proliferation of Internet porn also made many sex shops obsolete.

"It was kind of like a perfect storm for him," said Arturo Ignacio Sanchez, a City and Regional Planning professor at Cornell University. The process started with Koch, picked up speed under Dinkins and really accelerated under Giuliani, he said, adding: "It fast forwards with warp speed under Bloomberg, and you have the city today."

Times Square has always lived a double life - even a century ago the 10-block stretch of busy Midtown streets was home to upscale splendor as well as hidden brothels and fetid hotels. With the invention of neon and the rise of Broadway shows, the area slowly became the entertainment center of the city.

But by the time Giuliani took office, the area had fallen into decline. In 1993, nearly 4,000 incidents of crime were reported in the area, according to the Times Square Alliance, a business group.

Part of the revival was the arrival of upscale hotels, theme stores and restaurants - businesses that Giuliani helped lure with a private-public team of developers.

Disney received a low-interest loan from the city to give a facelift to the New Amsterdam Theater on 42nd Street, considered by some to be the crown jewel of the new Times Square. The renovated theater soon drew in other businesses, such as MTV, ESPN and other media companies.

Giuliani talks on the campaign trail about the eradication of porn shops from Times Square and about declining crime rates during his tenure.

"It didn't happen by accident, it didn't happen by wishing they went away," Giuliani said in a speech in October. "It happened based on a very well-organized campaign, a study demonstrating the impact of pornography on neighborhoods, an intense battle in court that nobody thought we would win, and we won. And most importantly, the pornographers lost and they were chased out of Times Square."

There are still some sex shops in Times Square, but the majority of them disappeared long ago. Some simply relocated.

Former City Councilman Thomas Duane was among the few who voted against the rezoning laws in the 1990s, in part because he was not eager to see the sex shops simply switch neighborhoods.

"He didn't get rid of them from New York City, he dispersed them from Times Square, mostly to the industrial waterfront areas of the city," Duane said of Giuliani.

"And as Manhattan became a more attractive place to live, people started moving into those communities and now the same problem exists," he said. "It just doesn't exist much where the tourists go."

[tear gas]

I have no idea in what order they will take their depositions in that case.

I'm just educating you as to one important reason why New York's first responders have no respect for your hero Rudy. When I found you, I found a person who was suffering from the delusion that New York's first responders have no respect for Rudy because some of them are members of a union.

And I know which candidate spoon-fed you your delusion. It's the only Republican in the race who likes to wear women's clothes.

I'm not going to ask you again why you have a crush on Rudy. Keep it to yourself if you wish.

[Alberta's Child]

I used to live in Inwood.

[jimbo123]

Who are you voting for? All I’ve heard from you is attacks on Rudy and falsehoods about the Fresh Kills lawsuit, but you do not provide an alternative candidate to support.

[jimbo123]

Nice neighborhood.

I’ve lived in Hell’s Kitchen since 1986.

[OESY]

This Times Square debate is silly. Giuliani can be criticized for several things, but this is not one of them. He cleaned up New York and made it a viable, vibrant city again. He demonstrated leadership when other leaders gave up. He never walks from an policy argument, and winning arguments attracts votes. Optimistic by nature, he get things done. Liberals hate and fear him, as this wedge piece illustrates, because he was so effective. America needs a strong leader, though I regret he chose not to run for governor of New York. We could use some integrity in Albany.

.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Well, one of the things that has upset New York's first responders is that Rudy used the remains of 9/11 victims to fill pot holes.

some finely sifted debris, which could have contained the cremated remains of human victims [...] cremated human remains were contained in the fine particles at the landfill [...] sifted by our machines down to ¼-inch

Not to be callous or anything but let's be clear that we are talking about ashes and dust at this point. I'm all for there having been a serious and careful effort to recover human remains, but when we start talking about cremated remains and dirt that has already been sifted down to the 1/4 inch, at some point you have to draw the line. Many remains have been recovered; let us bury those and give some closure. Getting the last 0.01% of sub-quarter-inch human ash is not going to provide comfort to any of the victims' families - also, it is humanly impossible.

Should Rudy have said "No! We need to get every last 1/8th of an inch!" Still not enough? Where then? 1/16th of an inch? 1/32nd? Down to the last human molecule?

This is a gruesome thought but there are, almost surely, millions of particles of cremated human remains from the 9/11 attack that went into the air, rode on the winds, and were scattered over a miles-wide radius on Manhattan and surrounding (and in the water). Perhaps Manhattan should be shut down, quarantined, and every particle examined for human DNA for the next hundred years, until every single molecule that could have been a part of the body of every single 9/11 victim has been tracked down. There could be "human remains" in specks of dust on every Manhattan windowsill, in every subway tunnel, heck - on the clothing of everyone who has visited New York in the last five years. Let's have a worldwide search.

At some point you have to draw the line. I feel sad for the survivors, but "if Rudy doesn't find every last sub-quarter inch piece of dust he's an evil monster!" is a misguided, emotionally-displaced cry for help on their part, not a serious criticism.

[tear gas]

I've said many times that I can support any of the Republicans who have a shot at the nomination except Rudy. I've also said that I will vote against Rudy every chance I get, no matter who he runs against. I cannot in good conscience ask our troops to support a weakling like Rudy. As president, he would just embarrass himself and humiliate our country.

You can stick with the pervert. But, we're gonna beat you. Wait and see.

Goodnight.

[Alberta's Child]

The problem with Inwood is that you have to go through Washington Heights — or the Bronx — to get there. LOL.

[tear gas]

Frank, I KNOW you feel that New York's first responders are just being overly sentimental when they object to Rudy's filling pot holes with the remains of their dead brothers and sisters. I suggest you go tell them that and tell them how important it is that they ignore all that and vote for your hero Rudy.

But, don't waste your time telling me. Everything about your fella disgusts me.

Goodnight.

[Dr. Frank fan]

My 80 year old father went through this "arduous" procedure and didn't miss a beat. About 1/2 hour at the hospital for each treatment (including time to disrobe/re-dress) and back to life as normal. No pain, no fatique, no nuttin!

That is nice for him.

Different people have different responses to radiation therapy, of course. Side effects can range from minor skin irritation to edema, nausea and worse, depending on the site. It is true, I believe, that prostate usually goes better than others.

An earlier poster stated that Giuliani also had seed implants (brachytherapy) which is basically a surgical procedure.

I used to work in this field.

Honestly, I think it's pretty low to scoff at someone going through it. I don't want to go through it and neither do you.

[roses of sharon]

LOL, more like conspirazoid followers of Olberman, same symptoms.

[magritte]

Interesting stuff. Of course, I’m not a big fan of the Village Voice or Wayne Garrett.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Frank, I KNOW you feel that New York's first responders are just being overly sentimental when they object to Rudy's filling pot holes with the remains of their dead brothers and sisters.

I don't accept that a large pile of dirt that has already been sifted down to the sub-1/4 inch level is the remains of their dead brothers and sisters in any meaningful sense.

Realistically, even if the "charges" in the article are true, we are most likely talking about a mass of dust and powder (mostly from concrete) of which perhaps 0.0000000001%, or some similarly-unfathomably tiny volume, might trace back to some human body.

I don't think they are being sentimental, I think they are being misguided and letting their emotions get the best of them. I think many of them probably need psychological help (and that's not a put-down, because I really have pity for these people). Also, let's note that the article doesn't mention "first responders" in the first place, this is a lawsuit brought by families of 9/11 victims.

Go get a ruler and rule out six quarter-inch squares on a piece of paper. Then cut them out (if you can). Then (this will be really hard) tape them together into a 1/4 inch-sided cube. That is the size of the "human remain" we are talking about.

I have more respect for human life than to reduce it to specks of dust on this level- and to delude myself into thinking that unless we recover each speck of dust we "haven't recovered the remains".

When I saw the headline, I was thinking it referred to bones and limbs. We are talking about sifted dirt for crying out loud. Where the heck do you draw the line? If 1/4-inch is not enough, what is? Please tell me.

I suggest you go tell them that and tell them how important it is that they ignore all that and vote for your hero Rudy.

I am not suggesting they or anyone vote for Rudy. I don't care who they vote for. I didn't even say I will be voting for Rudy (nor did I say he was "my hero"). I am simply pointing out that - like the "criticism" in the article above - your linked/implied "criticism" of Rudy Giuliani, that rubble from WTC that had already been sifted to the 1/4-inch level and "could" contain "human remains" is being used as... well, dirt... is irrational and misguided. I honestly don't understand what the heck you'd expect NYC to do with a large volume of already-finely-sifted WTC rubble.

Also let us note just for the record that the article doesn't seem to indicate what role if any Giuliani had in the decision of what to do with this dirt. From what I see I don't have a problem with it - but the silly thing is that it's not even clear that Giuliani had anything to do with it in the first place. As a "criticism of Rudy Giuliani", this is really a stretch.

Everything about your fella disgusts me.

That is clear, judging from the ludicrous extent to which you're willing to twist logic and reason so as to find these silly "criticisms" of him that don't hold water.

Honestly, there have got to be worse things about Rudy Giuliani than not sifting WTC rubble down to a smaller size than 1/4-inch.

[calcowgirl]

Interesting stuff. Of course, I’m not a big fan of the Village Voice or Wayne Garrett.

Those sources weren't what I was reading from. I started with FBI files and then was following some of the names of associates by reading old newspaper articles from the 1970s.

[calcowgirl]

I wasn't scoffing. But I was refuting the totally bogus story that he dropped out of the race because of physical limitations due to chemotherapy. He didn't have chemo and he had only minor physical limitations as evidenced by the fact that he carried on his duties as mayor with full vigor. He missed a couple days of work--that's it.

[MarkL]

Well, I can say that there was a HUGE difference between the Kcch/Dinkins run New York City and the Gulianni run NYC. And NOT just Times Square. All over the city. IMHO, the best example being Grand Central Terminal, the train and subway station. Before Rudy cleaned it up, is was a putrid cesspool where you really didn't want to spend any more time than you absolutely had to. About 3 years into Rudy's administration I was back, and the place was immaculate. Even the public bathrooms were clean! He also got rid of the "window washers" on the streets, and implemented new traffic rules that would fine the hell out of anyone blocking an intersection. And then there were the beat cops. During earlier administrations, it could be tough to find a cop. Under Rudy, sometimes it seemed as if there was a cop on every corner.

Mark

[MarkL]

Another fascinating and important criticism. Clearly, if bad things still exist somewhere, then you can't give Rudy Giuliani any credit whatsoever for cleaning up Times Square.

This is a totally fair, objective, and most importantly - logical news article.

From your "logic," there's nothing that "the man at the top" can do, since he can't do it all alone. So I suppose you see no difference between, say, Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, and their accomplishments.

The "man at the top" is the one who sets the agenda and puts the policies in motion. He uses the "bully pulpit" to change public opinion.

Mark

[MarkL]

It's Rudy, not "Rooty." I'm not a Giuliani supporter by any means but why do those who don't support him insist on mutilating his name. Is it supposed to be funny? That goes for Rudy McRomey, Ron L. Paul, Duncan Donuts and all that other nonsense when referring to candidates.

It's stupid.

When they can't use logic and facts to oppose the policies of an opponent, they simply resort to calling them names. Mangling the name is just one step above calling them a "doo-doo-head." And it's a very tiny step.

Mark

[aShepard]

OK, I give up!

How is this story any different than the Clintoons’ taking credit for the resurgence of the 1990’s US economy, which happened on their watch, based on the Reagan, Bush 41, tax and spend policies of their 1980’s administrations?

Change takes awhile. Just as the next administration will take credit for the success that Gen. Petreous has had in the 2007 Iraq war, as the war winds down. Bush be damned!

BTW, it’s interesting how Iraq has been excised from the newspapers and the TV news shows. Wonder why????

[Calpernia]

I do believe that Rudy breathed life back into an 80-year-old cabaret law, ‘single handedly’.