What does your Bible say about suicide? I don't recall anything in the New Testament. 
Posted on 12/28/2007 12:12:40 PM PST by wagglebee
It's not an issue on too many Oklahomans' radars, but outside the Sooner State, there is a gradually unfolding philosophical shift where euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are concerned.
On the larger world stage, Ozzy and Sharon Osborne, of Black Sabbath and reality TV-fame, recently brought certain European countries' more liberal approaches to end-of-life decisions to light with a visit to Switzerland.
They traveled there in October to scout out and show their support for Dignitas, a so-called "death apartment" where physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia were performed.
It's not exactly clear how they would notice, but the couple said they planned to make an appointment with the clinic if Ozzy ever came down with Alzheimer's disease.
(Their visit was cut short, incidentally, upon discovering that Dignitas had just been evicted from the building after repeated complaints by other tenants of the large number of coffins cluttering the side of the street outside).
Closer to home, Oregon is recognizing its 10-year anniversary this year as the only state in the nation in which physician-assisted suicide is legal.
This is largely due to the efforts of Compassion and Choices, an Oregon-based nonprofit group that provides end-of-life counseling and advocates, through litigation and legislative lobbying, patients' rights to choose their own manner of dying.
The word "suicide" was intentionally left out of the group's description because it takes particular offense to the use of the word to describe what it supports, regardless of the "physician-assisted"-prefix.
"Suicide is when somebody, usually irrationally, takes their life, but these people want to live. They love life, but they're already dying," said Mike Beard, media relations director for Compassion and Choices.
"Physician-assisted dying" more accurately described the practice established in the Death with Dignity Act, the law passed in Oregon in 1997, he said.
In the decade since the act took effect, the law "has worked extremely well," Beard said.
It's his group's goal that the rest of the nation's laws concerning to end-of-life rights would someday mirror Oregon's.
"There are, at any moment in time, tens of thousands of people who are in extraordinary amounts of pain and they have no options for how they can exit this life with peace and with grace, and we think we ought to afford people at the end of this life with a certain amount of dignity," said Beard.
He said the Death with Dignity Act was now so much a part of the fabric of Oregon's law and medical culture that he sees no possibility of it ever being repealed.
So, their attention is focused outward, to other states. Compassion and Choices has 45,000 members and 52 different local chapters across the nation.
But none in Oklahoma, Beard said.
That might be because, like Oregon, Oklahoma is unique in the nation, but for the opposite reason: because an opposing ethic is already woven into the fabric of the state's laws and medical culture.
"We're unique in the U.S. There's a statute on the books that makes a presumption that, if a patient can't speak, physicians are to provide them with therapy," Dr. Curtis E. Harris told UTW.
While that statutory presumption wouldn't technically conflict with Oregon's Death with Dignity Act (more on that later), the philosophies behind the two laws do represent the two opposing sides of the debate, as the doctor explains.
Fighting Death
Harris is Chief of Endocrinology at the Chickasaw Nation Carl Albert Diabetes Care Center in Ada.
He wears several other hats as well, including Adjunct Professor of Law, specializing in medical law, at the Oklahoma City University School of Law.
He also serves on the state Medical Licensure Board, and has been a regular commentator on medical ethics on National Public Radio.
Harris is also a member of the little-known Nightingale Alliance, the mission of which is "to promote compassionate, medical, emotional and social care at the end of life, allowing each individual to be treated with respect until natural death occurs, and to oppose the life-ending acts of physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia," according to www.nightingalealliance.org.
The Nightingale Alliance has existed for six years.
Barbara Lions, director of the Nightingale Alliance, said the organization came about as a response to a series of meetings from people across the country to legalize assisted suicide.
"It's mostly an information source. It doesn't lobby in the Legislature," she said.
Harris said he was asked to join the Nightingale Alliance because he had become so recognized for having started another group with similar goals.
"I founded the American Academy of Medical Ethics, which is about 8,000 physicians scattered throughout the southwest who wanted to return to the original Hippocratic tradition, to counter some of the principals advanced by Jack Kevorkian," he told UTW.
Of course, "Jack Kevorkian," a.k.a. "Dr. Death," is a household name across the country and beyond for having become the public face of physician-assisted suicide.
Hippocrates, though, might not be so familiar a name, save for doctors and "Jeopardy" buffs.
The ancient Greek is regarded as the Father of Medicine and formulated what is known as the Hippocratic Oath, variations of which are taken by doctors before embarking upon their careers.
The classical version, and others, contains a pledge to "neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor make a suggestion to this effect."
Harris explained that, not only was there a need to counter Kevorkian's influence, but another advocacy group--The Hemlock Society--was strenuously at work to change the pertinent laws in several other states, making them friendlier to principles Harris sees as consistent with Kevorkian's.
The Hemlock Society eventually changed its name to End-of-Life Choices and then merged with the similarly-purposed Compassion in Dying in 2004, becoming Compassion and Choices.
Harris said the Oklahoma Feeding and Hydration Act, which was passed in the early 1980s, sprang from a deep-seated medical ethic in the state that opposes anything but naturally occurring death, which would make any efforts at changing the state's laws an unwinnable, uphill struggle, which might explain why groups like Compassion and Choices have no significant presence in Oklahoma.
The law upholds the notion that a physician's role is to preserve life, never to end it, by creating the presumption that if a patient can't speak and hasn't previously indicated wishes to the contrary, they are to be kept alive by providing them with continued nourishment.
While Oregon's Death with Dignity Act lays out what Beard calls "really rigid standards and a fairly complicated process" by which terminally ill patients can receive a physician's assistance in dying, and does not create a statutory presumption in opposition to Oklahoma's Feeding and Hydration Act, Harris said it undermines that long-held notion established by Hippocrates in the 4th Century B.C.
"Prior to Hippocrates, the shamans, who were responsible for providing a type of medical care, would also administer poisons to end someone's life. Hippocrates changes all that, but we seem to be going back to that after 2,400 years," said Harris.
Accordingly, Lions said legalized assisted suicide or euthanasia would dramatically alter the medical profession.
That alteration, she said, would transform physicians' current roles as healers to the dual roles of healers and death-dealers.
That diversification of roles would inevitably lead to physicians bowing to "pressure to encourage people to choose death for financial reasons," said Lions.
The main victims, she said, would be women and minorities.
Minorities would be victimized because, well... dying is a lot cheaper than life-saving health care.
Lions said women would likely be victims because that was the case with Dr. Jack Kevorkian's "patients" or "victims," depending on how one views the issue.
"I have no idea why they were all women, but that's what happened," she said.
Harris said that "slippery slope" could be seen in the Netherlands, where euthanasia and assisted suicide were legalized decades ago after a highly publicized case in which a physician euthanized her mother at her own request because she was dying and expected to pass within a month or two.
The woman was convicted of murder, but due to an overwhelming amount of public sympathy, she was only sentenced to one day in prison, which she didn't serve, Harris recounted.
The incident swayed public opinion in favor of laws allowing euthanasia and assisted suicide in the Netherlands, which came about shortly thereafter, taking effect in 2002.
One Pill Makes You Stronger...
According to data collected two or three years ago by the Dutch government, Harris said 37 percent of all euthanasia operations in the nation were performed on competent, non-consenting adults.
If they're non-consenting, how is that not "murder?" he was asked.
"Because their law says it's not," answered Harris.
"Tolerance has become so great that this is acceptable in the Netherlands," he added.
Harris didn't recall the name of the study off the top of his head, however, and UTW wasn't able to locate it.
Regardless, that "slippery slope" might be apparent in a study conducted by the Royal Dutch Medical Association in 2005.
The study underscored the Dutch euthanasia law's lack of a specific definition of what physical or mental conditions must exist in a patient for euthanasia to be legally acceptable--only that a patient "must be suffering hopelessly and unbearably."
Jos Diikhuis, the emeritus professor of clinical psychology who led the study, said many doctors were approached by patients seeking euthanasia who did not have a classifiable disease.
"It is an illusion to suggest a patient's suffering can be unambiguously measured according to his illness," the report read.
Diikhuis and crew argued that the legal threshold for euthanasia should be "suffering through living" that could be judged "unbearable and hopeless."
Another subject of debate among the Dutch in the past several years has been euthanization of terminally ill children.
"There is no logical end," said Harris.
He said the worldwide movement toward euthanasia indicated a philosophical shift in people's definitions of life and the self.
"Personal autonomy has been the mantra in the past half century; social obligation and 'no man is an island' isn't the way people think any more. Now, 'My freedom ends at your nose' is the way they think," said Harris.
"In 1750, if I killed myself, I'd be buried in a paupers' field with no marker, and any inheritance I left would go to the state," said the medical/legal guru.
"Since the late 1800s and early 1900s, though, with the development of psychology as a field of science, suicide was no longer regarded as a crime but as a disease--a symptom of depression," Harris continued.
"So, if someone commits suicide, it's a failure of medicine. But now, we have this odd swing--it's no longer an emotional disease, it's a choice," he added.
Harris said the conditions described by Beard of the tens of thousands of people in extraordinary amounts of pain with no hope of recovering to health, did not exist.
"If I ran across that person, you might be pushing my ethics, but I've never seen that person," he said.
"We can control pain. We can sedate them," he added.
Harris said it was fine for physicians to relieve suffering through anesthesia, though.
Beard, though, said that's essentially what Compassion and Choices advocates for patients who are dying anyway.
He said Oregon's law only allowed assisted suicide under the strictest of conditions.
They must be terminally ill and dying within six months, they must initiate written requests for medication for the purpose of ending their life, and they must be able to administer it to themselves, among numerous other conditions.
Since the law took effect in Oregon, Beard said the state's suicide rate had declined.
"When someone has the option of the Death with Dignity Act, they don't need to use a weapon or drive their car in to a bridge abutment--they don't have to use violence on themselves," he said.
"Most people who are dying in Oregon die peacefully in their own homes," Beard added.
Also, he said many people who obtain medication to end their lives don't wind up taking it.
"Psychologists say it's because it gives them some measure of control over their own lives," he said.
He also said that, like the Nightingale Alliance, Compassion and Choices did not support "Kevorkian-esque techniques," and they opposed euthanasia.
While his organization is largely occupied in lobbying to change laws to allow assisted dying, Beard said his group opposed both euthanasia and Kevorkian's practices "because they're both against the law."
When pressed for an explanation, he simply answered, "They're against the law, and there's no need."
Regarding the "slippery slope" argument, Beard said it has been "absolutely disproven" by the recently completed Battin Assisted Suicide Study, led by University of Utah bioethicist Margaret Battin, published in October's Journal of Medical Ethics.
The report studied data collected for the past 10 years in Oregon and the past 20 years in the Netherlands, and concluded that legalized assisted suicide does not result in more deaths among certain terminally ill patients.
The report came under immediate fire when it was released, though, because she didn't disclose that she was a member of the advisory board of the Death with Dignity National Center in Portland.
Alex Schadenberg, head of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition, published an article on " www.lifenews.com in which he wrote that the study "at best, can be referred to as propaganda."
He also dismissed its conclusions about the non-existence of the "slippery slope" because the data analyzed--the annual reports from the Oregon Department of Human Services--did not include information pertaining to the decision-making process of the person seeking assisted dying.
Also, the report did not address the issues raised by Harris about the increased tolerance for euthanasia seen in the Netherlands.
To that, Beard said, "This isn't the Netherlands. I can't imagine that happening here."
Thats what happens when you get in a rush to go pick up the kids.
Sorry but it did turn into a mess.
I post this to you but it also concerns all the others who have posted to me doubting my sanity, they’re coming to take me a away he he haw haw ho ho
I have a really good friend down at the health club, Jimmy is an avowed homosexual man and a workout friend. He is extremely smart and knowledgeable about many subjects. I state Jimmy’s lifestyle because many homosexuals have pulled away from fundamental Christianity. Also, Jimmy works with with my wife on various psychiatric studies she performs for the university.
Sometimes we talk about various subjects and one of those is how he justifies his current lifestyle with his fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Jimmy likes to have this discussion because he knows that I disagree with his lifestyle. He tells me that he changed his beliefs and how he views Christianity when he met Bobby his partner. He states that he and Bobby believe in the new form of liberal Christianity taught at the All World Church of Science (Not real name but close) that started up several years ago.
Jimmy tells me that the King James Bible I read is full of inaccuracies (Shiite actually) and is for mostly older narrow minded people truly ignorant of the religious beliefs now accepted in the world.
I picked the following off the Internet for Jimmy and it closely resembles what I was taught as a boy in various Protestant churches about suicide. Of course Jimmy stated that the web site was the ranting of an ignorant hillbilly fundamentalist. I will post some of it here and you can make your own judgment:
href=”http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/s92.html";
Excerpt...............
(1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV) [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don’t you know that you yourselves are Gods temple and that Gods Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys Gods temple, God will destroy him; for Gods temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
(Psalm 39:4 NIV) Show me, O LORD, my lifes end and the number of my days; let me know how fleeting is my life.
(Psalm 139:15-16 NIV) [15] My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, [16] your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Excerpt
“You might be asking what those two have to do with suicide, they don’t even talk about death. Yes they do. Both of them talk about God knowing how long your life will be. How does God know? He knows because it is up to Him to decide. When a person kills them self, they are playing god in their own life. They are taking the decision away from God. Now I ask you; is that a sin?
Individual writing to web site:
Where exactly in the bible does it say that killing yourself is a sin? I know killing others is a sin, but I can’t find where it says killing yourself is. Killing someone else against their will is not the same as willingly giving up your own.
I accepted Jesus (again) in my heart wed night, had a little peace until I read in the bible that God doesn’t take away problems, just gives hope and strength. Well, I am one giant problem and a thousand little ones. Hope and comfort just won’t cut it. Always had this fantasy of meeting God at the gate and convincing Him to just make me cease to exist, no heaven, no hell, just nothing.
I found your website not too long ago, I was surfing the net for humor sites, wasting time until things were set to go. Then I found yours. Made me stop what I was doing. Isn’t that a riot? Bet you have helped a lot of people. Been reading the bible, but it just occurred to me that only murder of another person is a sin. I can’t find anywhere in the bible where is specifically says suicide is a sin, can you?
Will wait for your answer.
Web site:
You said you accepted Christ again wed. evening. That is great, but what did you accept? Did you accept Him as Lord and Savior of your life? Or did you accept Him as genie in the sky who will take care of all your problems? You are right, God will not instantly do away with all your problems. Some He might do that with, but that is not what He offers us. He does offer hope and comfort, but much more than that. Part of your problem seems to be that you have no idea what life is suppose to be about. It is not about having fun and being comfortable, it is about having a relationship with God. Until you have that close relationship you will not be able to know what Gods purpose for your life is. I can’t tell you what it is, because I don’t know, but I do know that He has a purpose for you. Maybe that purpose is to clean toilets in the subway and witness to the homeless people there. Or maybe it is a much different purpose. I don’t know, but I know that if God did not have a purpose for your life, you would not take in another breath.
See God is not powerless to kill you. He can take you life any time He wants to, so if you live another day, it is because God has ordained it. It is time you got your eyes off of yourself and onto Christ and see why He wants you on this earth. But make no mistake, you can claim the passages I quoted don’t mean anything, you can claim that God will welcome you into heaven even if you kill yourself, but you would only be fooling yourself. You cannot play God for a fool. He gave you life and it is up to Him when you die. If you make the decision with a clear mind to kill yourself, you have rejected Christ.”
End of Excerpt.........
Just the lowly opinions of a red state wannabe so FLAME AWAY if you so desire folks.
Happy New Year to you and yours.
What does your Bible say about suicide? I don't recall anything in the New Testament.
See my post at 42.
So, I really don’t understand your reasoning. Might just be a fundamental theological difference.
Yes, murder is sin. Although I’d be cautious of calling all suicide a sin, I could see that being true. However, I really don’t see how killing yourself is worse than killing another man. Yes, it is a sin, but it seems to me (a young Calvinist) very strange that our salvation depends on such an arbitrary thing as whether you commit a sin the day before you die or the moment you die. My belief is “once saved, always saved.”
So, yeah, probably not too much we can really discuss, if we disagree on that basic premise of how sin and salvation works.
I'm against suicide, and I believe that if you tell someone else to kill you in any way, that is suicide. I think everyone has a set of experiences, some very hard, that we are charged by God to endure or celebrate. Suicide is the sin of not doing what God has charged you with doing.
But, Biblically, Jesus said that the only unforgivable sin is that of blaspheming or speaking against God. I don't think removing yourself from the body fits that bill, more like shirking your duty
I have precise problem with assisted suicide, though, politically. Once a third party is involved by permission, it's a short time until the government is involved by legislation. Especially in a government that runs a welfare system.
As a baby boomer I hear younger people say why do we have to pay for your sins of greed when it comes to a shrinking environment.
I have even heard some speculate that maybe we need a law that once an older 70 to 80 years person reaches a certain age limit or has a major medical problem without hope of recovering to a normal life style then the government should consider euthanasia.
That kind of thinking would certainly put a crimp into my plans to live to a ripe old age.
Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars...so to speak. However as someone once said we cannot exclude that God could touch their heart and let them repent of it before the poison kills them. That is however a large risk to take...
It is my belief that I do not have the right to end what God has put on this earth.
Just because I personally think that my life stinks does not necessarily mean that God still dosen’t have a use for me somewhere down the line.
Suppose for a moment that someone that God really loves has gotten off the beaten path and is screwing up and needs to be redirected.
God may say I am going to keep Okiedoc around and use him to influence so and so’s life.
But instead I go out and commit suicide thereby taking away the use of me by God.
It’s a deep subject and thats how I feel about taking away a decision on whether I live or die from my maker.
I have been in several life and death situations and wondered later why I survived and for what reason.
Was it just the roll of the dice that kept me alive each time or was it the prayers that brought me through each horrendous situation.
Well if it was a roll of the dice, that brings up a bigger question, who made the universe and who caused the big bang?
Personally, I am going to cover all bases, like the scared Shiiteless young atheist in the fox hole.
Happy New Year to you and yours.
This is just the opinion of a red state wannabe.
I was raised Catholic. Back then, we were taught suicide was a mortal sin that led to eternal damnation. Suicide was a sin according to the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” Suicide is killing yourself. We were taught it is the same as murder.
As for the eternal damnation part, well, that’s probably debatable depending on whether you’re Catholic or Protestant. And the Catholic Church’s position today may differ from its stance 30-some years ago when I was a child in Catholic school.
Reichsleiter Bouhler and Dr. med. Brandt are instructed to broaden the powers of physicians designated by name, who will decide whether those who have - as far as can be humanly determined - incurable illnesses can, after the most careful evaluation, be granted a mercy death.
/signed/ Adolf Hitler
Yep, it’s pretty obvious that Oregon physicians are wiping out folks at the same rate and for the same reasons that Hitler did. Thanks for the incredibly relevant post. /s
The role of physicians in causing death to those who are disabled does, however, have a historical precedent, and I think it is extremely relevant.
We just went through the same situation with my father this past year. When I was pleading with one doctor, I said exactly what you just posted: that "hope" is so important. My father just wanted a chance.
My dad did everything the doctors told him to. They promised him that following surgery, he would be treated for his cancer. The surgery went wrong, and he ended up with a life-threatening infection. For months, he fought the infection and miraculously survived. But, by then, the doctors said the cancer had spread too far and it was too late to treat him. He was devastated. We refused to give up on him. We argued and argued with the doctors. My dad pleaded with the doctors to try something. He just wanted to be given the chance he was promised. They all refused.
Finally, months later, we found two doctors willing to try a treatment, however slim the hope, and - guess what - the hospital's ethics committee tried to stop them. So we ended up fighting the so-called "ethics" committee. Finally, he was given one treatment, but by then it was far too late, and he passed away.
This is the way things are today: Hospitals and doctors are willing to fight for your right to refuse treatment and to die. But, they won't fight for your right to try a treatment. They'll fight to deny you that right. That's been our experience.
my mom layed there for almost 3 months, waiting to die....if nothing else, I wished we had a 24/7 prayer group at her bedside, praying for a miracle....anything to make her feel that we still wanted her and we still had hope....
I usually defend doctors, but in both my mom's and dads' case....it's impossible...
One or two of these cases is an obvious botched situation. The one where the nurse took things in her own hands is similar to cases that have happened in almost any state. It’s criminal, but has nothing to do with the Oregon law. Dr. Gallant obviously acted outside the law. The fellow who took the dose and didn’t die from it means nothing at all in this discussion.
I’m sorry about your loss, too. What’s important is that we were there to hold their hands when they reached out to us. In the end, that’s what really matters.
Yep. The slippery slope is a real thing.
Oh, yes, I am impervious to the sarcasm and insults I noted by posters on this thread.
Heh.
Pinged from Terri Dailies
8mm
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