Romney Says Attacking Religion 'Goes Too Far' After Huckabee Questions Mormonism

Fox News ^ | December 12, 2007

[Zakeet]

BOSTON — Republican presidential hopeful Gov. Mitt Romney answered rival Mike Huckabee's upcoming published comments about Mormonism, declaring Wednesday that "attacking someone's religion is really going too far."

In an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

Romney, vying to become the first Mormon elected president, declined to answer that question during an interview Wednesday, saying church leaders in Salt Lake City had already addressed the topic.

"But I think attacking someone's religion is really going too far. It's just not the American way, and I think people will reject that," Romney told NBC's "Today" show.

Asked if he believed Huckabee was speaking in a coded language to evangelicals, Romney praised his rival as a "good man trying to do the best he can," but he added, "I don't believe that the people of this country are going to choose a person based on their faith and what church they go to."

Huckabee has been surging in recent opinion polls, taking the GOP lead in Iowa and pressing closer to Rudy Giuliani in polling.

The former Massachusetts governor also was asked why he used the term "Mormon" only once last week in a highly publicized speech about religion in which he said he was proud of his faith.

"Actually, we prefer the name 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,"' he said. "'Mormon' used to be a nickname and I don't use it a lot, but now and then I do because people know what faith I'm referring to, and I talked about 'my faith' a number of times, and I don't imagine anybody is confused about what faith I have."

[AwesomePossum]

In an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

I don't see what the big deal is here, this is not a stretch..........we are all children of God (Acts 17:29), and thus "brothers".

When I was a kid, I attended a mainstream church, and was given a Bible, and in the back of that Bible it said that I would learn that Jesus was my Elder Brother.........in most of the funerals (conducted by ministers of various churches) that I have attended in my life, it is often repeated by those ministers that the deceased has been called home.....

Let me see now, if we were with God (home) before we came to the earth and got a body you can poke with a stick, we must have been with Him as a spirit, because that is how we go back to Him, as a spirit (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Now, the Bible tells us that a rebellious Satan and those aligned with him were cast down from Heaven (Home) to the earth (Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12:7-12).........could it be they were also spirits and therefore our brethren in Heaven (Home) before they were cast down?

From a temporal perspective, Jesus is the Elder Brother of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and every murderer, rapist, and child molester on earth.......but this fact in no way diminishes the glory and magnificence of the Savior, just as it does not diminish The Redeemer for His being the Elder Brother of the rebellious spirits in Heaven (Home), including Satan...............

HPMFR (have prepared myself for flaming retorts)

:}

[unspun]

I think it is quite apt and fair to say that Mormonism is a cult begun by a con man. I think it is also fair to say that they have been striving for sanity and legitimacy, since then and that there are numerous Mormons with hearts given to the Lord.

[newheart]

Yes God created Satan. But Satan chose to rebel and fell. I know of no provision for Satan’s salvation and, in fact, the Bible says that Hell was created for Satan and his angels.

But here is a distinction b/n Mormon and orthodox Christian doctrine. God did not create Jesus. They are one and the same. They and they alone eternally pre-exist.

[esarlls3]

What bothers me is that, apparently the Mormon Church is willing to claim that the Jesus/Satan brotherhood is not a point of Mormon doctrine when it most clearly is (and which your response and restornu’s response argue). I find that denial to be extremely troubling. If I were Mormon I think I would find it even more troubling.

I think the problem starts with what that 'brotherhood' means to LDS and non-LDS audiences. From the LDS perspective, we are all, including Satan and his followers, spirit siblings but Christ is the only begotten of the Father. Some anti-LDS authors want to imply that our belief that Satan's spiritual father is the same as Christ's is in conflict with the statement that Christ is the only begotten. Here is today's official press release on this issue from the LDS.org Newsroom:

SALT LAKE CITY 12 December 2007 Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel.

As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.

[ssaftler]

Huckabee should be more covert. He’s not running against Romney. He’s running against the Democrats.

You wanna bet? Why is the MSM and the DNC keeping their grubby mits far away from Huckster-bee? They're doing all they can to build up the latest and greatest "Man from Hope" because they know they can take him out without breaking a sweat if by some miracle he gets the nomination.

Heard him referred to on the radio this morning as a "Republican McGovern". Need we say more about this charlatan?

[newheart]

Yes, I had stumbled on the rest of what the LDS spokeswoman had said and stand corrected—to a degree. If we want to approach this fro a doctrinal point of view, the real conflict for me is that the Jesus and Satan as brothers idea equates Jesus and Satan while, I believe, (and it is a very common point of orthodox Christian doctrine) that Jesus and God the Father (along with the Holy Spirit are one and the same, They/He alone eternally pre-exist.

[restornu]

What bothers me is that, apparently the Mormon Church is willing to claim that the Jesus/Satan brotherhood is not a point of Mormon doctrine when it most clearly is (and which your response and restornu’s response argue). I find that denial to be extremely troubling. If I were Mormon I think I would find it even more troubling.

I do hope that Mitt has the sense not to deny the doctrine. I disagree with the doctrine, but I respect anyone’s right to a different belief than mine.

How should it be a problem when one of the Morning stars (angels) (Lucifer/Satan) the who fell from heaven and was vanished from the Lord's Kingdom to never return.

The Morning Stars were us while still spirit angels!

God asks Job where he was when the foundations of the earth were laid, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy—

Job 38
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In all fairness this not that an ourrages it shows that their was one among them who was an enemy to the Heanvenly Father and now no longer part of the family of God!

Lucifer had miss used his gifts and therefore received no more increase in the Kingdom of God.

There are all kinds of angels and different degrees of angels!

when we were create in human form meaning the temporal body, we became a little lower than the spirit angels, when we are resurrected some day we will be above the spirit angels.

[esarlls3]

Zakeet's post	esarlls3's response
Didn't Mormon President Brigham Young state: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51). Didn't Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith state: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19).	Jesus Christ was begotten of the Father. Since we believe the Holy Ghost is a different being, Christ can't be begotten of both of them. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, [so Mary can stand the presence of Heavenly Father] and the power of the Highest [Heavenly Father] shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost [meaning the Holy Ghost was required for the conception to take place], and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God [meaning his biological father is our Heavenly Father]. The scriptures don't indicate the details about how it took place, just that it happened. Mary being "overshadowed by the power of the Holy Ghost" may not have remembered what took place. If she did, there is no record of her sacred experience being transferred to others, but rather kept private to ponder in her heart.
Didn't Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie state: "These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47). Didn't Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie also state: "And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.742). It seems the idea that "Heavenly Father physically impregnated Mary" is indeed clearly supported by both statements from church leaders and by church doctrine.	1) When Bruce R. McConkie wrote Mormon Doctrine he was not an Apostle. 2) The book Mormon Doctrine is not published by the LDS church. While it is useful for reference, it represents the views of one person and is not an official doctrinal reference. 3) You will not find this doctrine taught anywhere on LDS.org, which includes all LDS scriptures, LDS teaching materials, talks by LDS leaders in General Conferences, and LDS church magazines. Certainly Bruce R. McConkie believed there was physical contact between Heavenly Father and Mary. There is no scriptural evidence to support or refute this belief. It is an unanswered question. I don't believe the church has a position one way or the other. Does virgin mean simply that she was a virgin before conception or that she remained a virgin after conception? Personally, I think it was the latter and that Bruce R. McConkie was wrong on this. I believe he was wrong about some other things in Mormon Doctrine, too.

[nonsporting]

If a candidate wants to appeal to the value-voters, then his values and religious worldview are on the table.

A valid point, hopefully Huck will pursue it! Pointing out doctrinal differences is different than pointing out differences in moral values.

But is does point explicitely to major differences in their worldviews which in turn will shed light on morality and moral differences.

[Old Mountain man]

Okay, cite the moral differences! If you claim it, I hope you know it.

[esarlls3]

If we want to approach this from a doctrinal point of view, the real conflict for me is that the Jesus and Satan as brothers idea equates Jesus and Satan ...

Not really, we are all spirit siblings. Satan and his followers were cast out and never received bodies and will not be resurrected.

The rest of us came to earth, receive a body, are tried to see if we have faith and are obedient, die and are resurrected, and then are judged and rewarded according to our judgement.

Christ was born like us to a mortal body. His biological father is our Heavenly Father and thus Jesus is the Son of God, and the Only Begotten. He was then offered as a pure sacrifice to atone for our sins. In Gethsemane and on the cross, he prayed to his father.

[Old Mountain man]

We disagree about that. If you believe God the Father created all, then you believe He created the spirits of both Jesus Christ the Savior and Satan. If you do not believe that, then you have some alternate belief.

If, as it says quite often in the Holy Bible, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, as I do, then why do you have your bowels in an uproar?

[Old Mountain man]

NOBODY, including your wife (unless she has forgotten what she was taught) honestly claims that Satan will become god over his own universe. Don’t even go there, because it is not true.

[newheart]

With respect, my friend I simply disagree.

"How should it be a problem when one of the Morning stars (angels) (Lucifer/Satan) the who fell from heaven and was vanished from the Lord's Kingdom to never return."

Not a problem at all. In fact I agree with that. But that is a far cry from equating as brothers, Jesus and Satan when, as I believe, Jesus and Got the Father(and the Holy Spirit) are the same--not three separate beings. As he told the disciples, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

"The Morning Stars were us while still spirit angels!"

God asks Job where he was when the foundations of the earth were laid, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy—

Job 38
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

I just don't see that Job supports this.

It would seem to me that the most straightforward reading of this would be that God is saying to Job that he was NOT around when God laid the foundations of the earth.

So we disagree on the pre-existence of humans as 'spirit' beings. I don't see that without the supplement of joseph Smith's works that this can reliably be supported in Scripture.

Having said that, I also know that I my own doctrinal positions are far from perfect. In the end, I am not saved by doctrine, but in my sinfulness I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. If we agree on that, you and I can call each other brother. The rest, He will sort out in eternity.

[newheart]

Sorry, but my bowels aren’t really in an uproar. But I don’t think it is wrong for me to express where we differ. God the Father and Jesus Christ (along with the Holy Spirit) are one and the same being. And Jesus did say, “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” John 14:4-11

Please don’t ask me to explicate the details of the Trinity. I can’t, but it is only within a Trinitarian perspective that i can make sense of all this. FAther Son and Holy Spirit existing as one and three in eternity—previous to creation. Loving and giving love. Infinite, pure and eternal. That they/he chose to share that love with us through creation and especially through the sacrifice on the cross is a concept I am not even worthy to think about—except by His grace toward me.

[Old Mountain man]

Me and Mark Twain have just never really understood that stuff about three equals one. I always thought (and still do) that God was the first and all the rest is His creation, including all the spirits and angels in Heaven.

[greyfoxx39]

Mormonism & Bruce McConkie's Book: Mormon Doctrine

[newheart]

:-)
Sam and I are old friends. I actually grew up in Hannibal, MO. Apart from his agnosticism (which at times I suspect was just a tongue-in-cheek way to skewer the religious hypocrites of the day—or any day.)

For the clearest description of the three in one I’d suggest a small book by Francis Schaeffer entitled, He is There and He is Not Silent. Clarified the issue to me—at least as much as it can be clarified to someone like me with a finite brain. And i suspect my brain is more finite than most. :-)

[Zakeet]

In an official LDS Church Manual, Church President Joseph F. Smith told LDS parents they should use the above diagram to explain to their children “how Jesus was the only begotten Son of God.” Daddy plus Mommy equals you; Heavenly Father plus Mary equals Jesus. (Family Home Evening Manual, p. 125-6, 1972)

Thanks for the update, but ...

I could have used many more quotes supporting the claim the Mormon Church teaches God physically begat Jesus, as you can see here and here. The citations come from various Mormon Church Presidents, Apostles, and official publications.

I was especially interested in your comments about Apostle McConkie since I have never heard those arguments raised before. I wasn't aware that Mr. McConkie was not an Apostle at the time he wrote Mormon Doctrine. Has he ever retracted any of these views since he became an Apostle? Has the Mormon Church ever renounced any of the teachings found in Mormon Doctrine, and if so, which ones?

I think I do understand at least one reason for some of the confusion between the clear statements of Mormon Church Authorities and the information found at lds.org. According to the authors in one of the articles I cited:

You might ask, "How can Mormons say that Christ was born of a virgin when leaders have consistently described an act common to the reproductive process?" This is accomplished by changing the definition of the word virgin. Since Mormonism teaches Mary did not have sexual relations with a mortal man, but instead was impregnated by an immortal man, Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase virgin birth. As Bruce McConkie said, "For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).

Frankly, I can see why the Mormon Church might want to disguise this teaching. Again, quoting from the aforementioned article:

When one considers that the LDS Church also teaches that every human born on earth is a literal child of God, the above quotes become even more blasphemous. Mormon leaders have maintained that all humans, Mary included, were born first in a spiritual state known as the pre-existence. If Mormon leaders are telling the truth when they say that God physically impregnated Mary, then we have no other recourse than to assume the Jesus of Mormonism was created by way of an incestuous relationship.

[restornu]

First of all so there is no misunderstanding Jesus was always way above the rest of the spirit children including Lucifer who was among us in the pre-mortal the scriptures testify to it in Isa 14 was mention in my first post.

Yes in that realm we were sisters and brothers in the spirit, and Heavenly Father was the Father to all of us even though none of us were begotten, like the Son Jesus Christ!

BTW when we die does it not say we will return to the Father from whence we came!

So that reminds us that we have existed before this earth existence.

The version of the 3 or Trinity as you believe they are all 3 one in one substance.

LDS version of the Godhead is that the 3 or separate not in one substance.

Your Trinity remains as 3 spirits in one substance. So we do come to different conclusion in that area.

The LDS believe that Jesus NOW has a resurrected body, which means that he has received the fullness of the Heavenly Fathers Glory of an eternal Body of Flesh and Bone.

I would also like to say that in searching the Scriptures one begans to have an greater insight or observation on such things (as in the sister and brother relationship of the premortal spirits) which understanding is received by the power of the Holy Ghost, but to make clear they are not the doctrine, it is more awareness of how things work or putting our understanding into perspective, but it is not doctrine in the sense of vital ordinance or covenants!

I believe that none is saved without Jesus Christ, for he showed us the way and redeemed our souls.

In all due respect.