Posted on 12/12/2007 8:41:31 AM PST by xzins
Republican Mitt Romney retorted to questions about his faith by surging rival Mike Huckabee on Wednesday, declaring that "attacking someone's religion is really going too far."
In an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
(Excerpt) Read more at lasvegassun.com ...
“But, I’m not allowed to say what I read.”
You’re not allowed to say what you just said, huh. Nice self-contradiction.
Since you are MDiv, you are probably aware of the difficulties of the trinity as Christian doctrine and how easy it is for heresies to form around it. maybe you are aware of how the Byzantines tore themselves apart over the Monophysite doctrines, and how the Nestorian were banished to far parts of the empire, to sulk.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10489b.htm
Byzantium in 600AD was a theocratic empire, and those theological schisms and sulkers gave rise to resentments that weakened the empire. Those heretics and that theological division led some people to be more receptive to a new religious leader out of Arabia when he came knocking at Damascus and Jerusalem, until then Christian cities.
His name was Mohammed. They swept quickly through Byzantium’s mid-east provinces in a few decades. The rest as they say, is history.
Splitting hairs over the trinity got a whole Christian empire near destroyed by Muslims in 650AD.
It would be a shame if splitting hairs *today* over a doctrinal heresy of the trinity leads to us making an inappropriately inserting theology into politics; worse if it means putting an incompetent leader up as CinC, who then through bad policies (close Gitmo, play nice with Iran) like Jimmy Carter did, once again gives a leg up on the Muslims against the putatively Christian West.
Oh the irony!
I think Owen had the list of Mormons in the Reagan White House. Quite a long list, actually. let’s ping him.
“I’ve seen, basher, hater, & bigot.”
If the shoe fits.
” Romney’s bid to be POTUS is bringing about a high whinny factor among many Mormons.”
I’m not a Mormon but I’ve used the above terms, when appropriate, on those who think inserting Mormon-bashing statements into the political campaign is somehow a brilliant idea for a Republican primary. ... Whatever label you put on it, it’s all a sub-category of Stupid.
***I’m not a Mormon but I’ve used the above terms, when appropriate, on those who think inserting Mormon-bashing statements into the political campaign is somehow a brilliant idea for a Republican primary. ... Whatever label you put on it, it’s all a sub-category of Stupid.***
First time I’ve ever heard where asking a true statement about Mormonism is considered bashing. Oh, wait, everyone who questions Mormonism is considered a basher and bigot. Romney and his supporters would do better if, rather than acting like whinny babies every time Mormonism is brought up, they start trying to find ways to hide his liberal record. I think this victimhood mentality is not doing anything to help Romney look Presidental.
Sorry, don’t still have it. Was quoting someone else.
Reagan had a huge number of Mormons on staff.
My friend, if you can't see or hear the differences between the entire group of Republican candidates ... and that group of race-baiting, class hustling, anti-US Democratic candidates -- then you just obviously ain't even trying to see straight.
“Ronald Reagan truly admired the Latter-day Saints. His administration included more members of the Church than any other American president, ever. Three of us, David Fischer, Gregory Newell and I, served on his personal White House staff. Richard Wirthlin was his chief strategist. Ted Bell served as Secretary of Education, Angela Buchanan was Treasurer, Rex Lee was Solicitor General. His White House included Roger Porter, Brent Scowcroft, Richard Beal, Blake Parish, Jon Huntsman Jr., Dodie Borup and Rocky Kuonen, and there were many other Latter-day Saints throughout his Administration. President Thomas S. Monson served on a Presidential Commission on Volunteerism. Others were ambassadors. LDS senators and representatives were held in special regard, and the Tabernacle Choir was his special inaugural guest.” -Stephen M. Studdert, Special Assistant to President Reagan
Anyways, None of that would prevent anyone from being a Republican. The local golf course has more rigorous member standards that the RP. Prove me wrong.
“While I do not agree with the Mormon view of how Jesus became the “Son of God” (prefering the mystery of simply believing), Lucifer was created by God. I also don’t use the term “spirit children”, but in some sense I am Jesus’ brother.
But I don’t find it particularly “presidential” for a candidate to be asking questions about religious doctrine, especially in a blatant attempt to disparage another candidate based on that religious belief.”
Thats nice, thanks for keeping me current on your feelings.
“Mormon doctrinal details will not impact how he performs as president.”
They already have. Romneycare is an outgrowth of the Mormon “works” philosophy. Mitt’s flip flops on issues are straight from the deceptive practices used by the Mormon church to convince the gullible (that’s why your ads don’t say diddly about the Mormon Church till the last moment, if at all). In fact, Mitt is running as the “Holier Than Thou” Mormon (which is why I don’t like Huckabilly either). In short, the cake is baked.
Maybe you havent stuck around all the sewer-level threads where Mormons were attacked as unfit for office due to their ‘cult’ beliefs. what we are talking about is inserting warped, negative charged characterizations of Mormonism into a discussion where its not appropriate.
As for the defense that ‘facts’ precludes bias or bigotry:
It’s no more bigotted I suppose than coming up with the most negative stats you can about black people and inserting it into a discussion about Alan Keyes or JC Watts, and wondering aloud if, since there is a higher incidence of convicted theives in black males, a Keyes administration might be prone to stealing money than white-race administration. No more bigotted than that.
As I said, whatever the specific label you’d give for barring a candidate based on a religious affiliation, any time you have a voter judging a candidate based on their religious affiliation primarily and not their individual character, capabailities and agenda you’ve got a voter being just plain stupid.
Romney is not a victim, nor a liberal, but a good leader who he showed it in his excellent speech on faith in America:
http://www.mittromney.com/News/Speeches/Faith_In_America
"They already have. Romneycare is an outgrowth of the Mormon “works” philosophy."
That is the lamest, most pathetic reach I've seen in a loooong while on an FR thread. Huckabee had ArKids, which was/is more socialistic in that it is a straight Govt subsidy, as compared with the Massachusetts 'connector' a mechanism for pooling insured and the health insurance providers.
So you have to conclude that Huckabee is even MORE into this "works" stuff, and find out - hmmmm - that his "Christian values" is making him do this stuff! Yikes, he must be even more MORMON than Mitt, doing all this evil "works" stuff.
... or maybe you've just let your prejudice run ahead of common sense a bit, and the two are not related ...
"Mitt’s flip flops on issues are straight from the deceptive practices used by the Mormon church to convince the gullible " Mormonism is false, therefore Mormons are liars? Disgusting. Defamatory. Another example of the kind of bigotry that folks claim doesn't exist in between the breaths of expressing it.
As for the Holier than Thou part, that's simply wrong. Mitt's genuine and hearfelt "Faith In America" address expressed where he stands; he expressed the themes of religious liberty and broad acceptance of other faiths so well, only someone bound and determined to hate a Mormon (you??) would be offended by what he said.
Ronald Reagan had “a lot of Mormons as staff in the White House” ... is true.
See post #147.
Not at all.
Republican candidates (with an occasional exception) do not pander to the race hustler crowd. They do not dwell on class envy, or target the "rich" with unconditional promises to the middle class or poor.
And they do NOT promise tax increases as a beneficial prize to be savored.
Nor do Republicans vow to take down entire industries, such as the oil drillers, house builders, pharmacuticals, or health insurance -- just for the sake of satisfying some insatiable anti-corporate blood lust in the hearts of the base (like the Democrats do).
And most important of all, the Republicans boost and support our Military, while promoting strength thru peace which in fact has kept our great land free and prosperous the past 65 years.
Can you imaging trusting the head-in-the-sand approach to US security to America bashers like Pelosi, Cynthia McKinney, Harry Reid, Oracko Bamma, Jack Murtha, Barney Frank, etc.
***Maybe you havent stuck around all the sewer-level threads where Mormons were attacked as unfit for office due to their ‘cult’ beliefs. what we are talking about is inserting warped, negative charged characterizations of Mormonism into a discussion where its not appropriate.***
Oh, I’ve seen the threads. In the Huckabee case, what he said was not a negative characterization in the sense that it wasn’t true. Perhaps it is negative in the sense that the Mormons don’t want their true beliefs known. It might shatter the illusion they are trying to create that they are Christian. But, it isn’t false. So, this spin about bigots for simply asking what is true does nothing but make Mormons and Romney supporters look like a bunch of whinny babies.
His supporters would be better served trying to make his liberal record disappear and telling people about something conservative for which he stands. Let’s face it, Mormonism isn’t Christian and it should quit trying to pretend to be. It makes Mormonism look bad. It makes Mormons look like whinners. And, it is clearly hurting Romney.
***As I said, whatever the specific label you’d give for barring a candidate based on a religious affiliation, any time you have a voter judging a candidate based on their religious affiliation primarily and not their individual character, capabailities and agenda you’ve got a voter being just plain stupid.***
Let’s ignore the fact that what you propose means that these Christian Conservatives must abondon their religious convictions that a cult membership is an indication of their individual character, capabilities and agenda. It is amazing that when a Liberal tells others they are a bigot for acting out of their convictions he is a bigot and we decry them for their intolerance, but, evidently it is OK in Romney’s case.
Like I said, acting like whinny Liberals doesn’t help Romney.
What a bunch of hooey.
When listening to someone who claims to be serious about their faith it is very telling if they are prepared to answer, or not. The whole bit about "it's not right to ask someone about their faith", or "they didn't ask the question correctly" is a way of avoiding the question. Avoidance is usually an indication that there is something to hide.
It sure seems there is no room for discussion. What I'm seeing is the typical dodge of "there's no room to discuss this, or I will be offended".
Huckabee’s comment was clearly an attempt to smear Mormons, particularly Romney, and scare people away from supporting him for the presidency. Once Huck said it, it’s out there, the damage is done, mission accomplished. Huckabee knew exactly what he was doing.
I haven't see the article so I don't know the context that the question came up. However, assuming that he did toss that in with full knowledge of Mormon beliefs how is this so bad? What do you think is going to happen in the general election?
Is there something in the Mormon faith that is so different that Romney will be sunk if everyone knows about it?
It bothers me that Romney gets the third degree, the double standard and no slack, while Obama gets the media celeb treatment and no tough treatment at all.
It bothers me too!
This is the world we live in and need to be able to overcome. I don't see anyway Romney can win if he can't deal with tough questions about his faith.
Wait till the general election. If Mormons think this forum is tough they will be shocked.
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