Posted on 11/20/2007 4:44:55 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
DALLAS - When a pair of Mormon missionaries knocked at the door of Jerry Pierce's home in a north Dallas suburb last month, he marshaled his arguments and stood his ground.
"I look forward to encounters like that. I like to talk to them about the nature of Christ and who Jesus is," said Pierce, a staunch Southern Baptist, the biggest Protestant denomination in the United States.
Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is running into similar resistance as he tries to win over Southern Baptists and other evangelical Protestants in the race for the Republican Party's nomination for the 2008 U.S. presidential election.
Romney will need the support of this traditional Republican base if he is to take on former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, who is running strongly in opinion polls despite his three marriages and a pro-abortion position that is anathema to many Republicans.
The reason Romney faces difficulties with Southern Baptists, according to many experts, is his Mormon faith. Not only do many Southern Baptists regard the Mormon church as a cult, they also regard it as a competitor that is winning -- or poaching -- converts from among the evangelical flock.
"There are now more Mormons that used to be Southern Baptist than any other denomination," said Dr. Richard Land, president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, a 16-million strong group.
"As a consequence, Southern Baptists and other evangelicals have taught their people what Mormons believe and why it's beyond the boundaries of the Christian faith, to inoculate them against those Mormon missionaries," he told Reuters.
This is no small matter for people who take their faith as seriously as Southern Baptists do, and to counter the perceived threat they teach their members in Sunday School to be ready for that knock at the door and be wary of Mormon missionaries.
Romney himself did missionary work overseas.
Some say a Mormon in the White House would help the faith -- founded in 1830 in New York state by Joseph Smith and still struggling with the legacy of polygamy -- become more accepted. This is a dim prospect for evangelical leaders, who see themselves competing with the religion, literally, for souls.
"Many evangelicals do not want to see Mormonism mainstreamed," said Matthew Wilson, a political scientist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.
For Romney, the stakes are high. He is casting himself as a social conservative family man opposed to abortion and gay marriage, in a bid to win over white evangelical Protestants, who account for about a third of the Republican electorate by some estimates.
A recent poll by the Pew Research Center found he only had the support of about 10 percent of white Republican and Republican-leaning evangelicals.
"There are a lot of conservative Christians who are going to look at the Mormon thing and say, 'Wait a minute, he may be conservative but he's a Mormon,' and they're not going to go there," said Steve Swofford, a pastor in the city of Rockwall, near Dallas, and former president of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention.
Romney has managed to make some headway with evangelicals who have yet to unite around a single Republican candidate.
He has received support from politically active evangelical leaders such as Paul Weyrich and there is a small group of bloggers called "Evangelicals for Mitt."
On the other hand, there is no group called "Mormons for Mitt" and Romney plays down his faith.
Many Americans associate Mormonism with polygamy, once a central tenet but now practiced by only about 40,000 renegades. One of those renegades, polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, was sentenced to 10 years to life on November 20 for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her cousin.
Evangelical Protestants tend to be more aware than most that the Mormon church now opposes polygamy, but they have other bones of contention, such as Mormon efforts to recruit their members.
NUMBERS AND GROWTH
There is no hard data -- the Mormon church does not crunch numbers on the previous faiths of its converts -- but there is evidence pointing to Mormon inroads among Southern Baptists.
The Mormon faith is growing faster than almost any other. In 1963, its membership stood at two million but now is close to 13 million with over half outside of the United States.
"The church of course is growing everywhere, now somewhat faster overseas than in America. But we do not as a matter of policy attack other churches," said Mike Otterson, a spokesman for the Mormon church in Salt Lake City.
In America some of its fastest growth has been in Southern Baptist strongholds, notably the South, according to data provided by the Mormon church.
In the United States overall its membership grew by 3.2 percent from 2004 to 2006. But in 13 states of the South its numbers grew over the same period by 5.3 percent.
Evangelical soil can be fertile ground for Mormon growth.
Mormons and Southern Baptists take similar conservative stances on social issues and tend to vote Republican, so their cultural and political outlooks are not really in conflict.
"Some Southern Baptists will live near Mormon communities functioning at their best, where they will see in practice the kind of family-oriented, sober, diligent, and disciplined lives that Southern Baptists preach but do not always display," said Mark Noll of the University of Notre Dame.
Noll, a leading evangelical historian, also said the theological underpinnings of the faiths had some similarities.
"Southern Baptists maintain a vigorous doctrine of divine revelation. That latter belief is not too far from the Mormon belief that God spoke to and through Joseph Smith," he said.
That brings up something I was going to mention, but did not. It's a sad story. The priest we had left and was replaced by a new one, who had apparantly gotten wrapped up in Acts. He introduced a Pentecostal prayer group. Like-minded people from out of town began showing up in droves over a space of two years. The services began to become incomprehensible to many of the original communicants, who stopped attending. When a critical mass was reached the "congregation" voted to withdraw from the Diocese. In actual effect, we had the church stolen from us, and it took years to resolve the issue. By then, the church itself began its quest for "Secular Relevancy",(Unitarian with an English Accent) so I walked away from that entire scene. It also left me with a residuum of disgust for the people who did it. Going into a trance and speaking in tongues does not absolve someone from the "Thou shalt not steal" part. But I did not call them "Cultists".
The original ones whom I had known personally for years, I would call "Screwballs", though, because if it were not that particular practice, they would have been attracted to something else. Therapy would have been a better answer-many had serious issues.
Duckbilled Platypus.
I agree. Duncan is the most correct on the issues. Unfortunately, Duncan has demonstrated that he is not capable of organizing an effective national campaign. It's sad, really. I donated more to Duncan than I have ever given any candidate. I had hoped for a time that he might be in position for VP but his ineffective campaign will likely rule that out. I still have hope for a cabinet position for Duncan.
Fred is my second choice but is in a similar position. Everyone had high hopes for him and delaying his entry gave him a big bounce. He has declined steadily since then. I don't like some things about Fred but will support him over the other options if he's viable when the time comes.
Other candidates going nowhere are: Tancredo, who's single issue is immigration; Huckabee, who is a good social conservative but wrong on almost everything else; and Paul, who is good on limited government but wrong on almost everything else.
That leaves Mitt & Rudy, who are both a mix of some good issue positions, some wrong issue positions, and some inconsistencies. Overall, Mitt currently represents better issue positions than Rudy. Both are seriously lacking and we can only hope that the VP choice helps fill in the gaps. I think Rudy's personal life would be much more embarrassing than Mitt's. (Rudy in drag would be published internationally as "The President of the United States" - Al Jazeera will love it.) I also think more people will "definitely not vote for" Rudy than Mitt - especially among Republican activists.
Without a focus on one non-Rudy candidate, the non-Rudy vote will be split up and Rudy will win the nomination. It's the Perot factor in the primary.
Mitt has the personality and charisma that can motivate activists to get involved. Mitt is a good debater and can defeat Hillary. He is a settle for candidate, not unlike G.W. Bush. Unfortunately, he's our only hope. Unless someone hears Yoda saying, "No, there is another."
Based on your list of superstitions, your opinion of Mormons must be that they are rubes who just fell off the truck. Are you going to confront Mitt Personally? Scripture says that if you have a problem with some one, you should confide the offense in them first before slandering them to the world.
If you don’t want to bring it up with him, why should you keep bringing it up on Free Republic?
I have no problem with his religion. It’s his policies that I don’t agree with. Too big government for me.
I suppose that's another way of saying:"Gimmie that ol' time religion. It's good enough fo..."
Hey!!! What am I saying???
I tell you: That Penticostal Movement. It's insidious.
I learned a long time ago not to throw stones. At ANYBODY! I'm going to have a tough enough time squeezing past the Pearly Gates as it is.
I had a dear, wonderful friend who died of cancer a few years ago. He kept his sense of humor through the whole ordeal. A few days before he died, I said: "Just one thing: When you get there, would you bore a little hole and pull me through?"
He doubled over with laughter.
He knew enough about me to see the problem.
"Duckbilled Platypus."
Bless you, Brother. I needed that.
In fact, if I arrive at the Pearly Gates and discover that God doesn't have a sense of humor--please remind me of mine--and that the joke's on me!
And if it turns out there's no life after death, I'm going to be very disappointed. The joke's on me again! Remind me how hilarious it is.
~S
Inviting ones self to be posessed by _something_, whether it claims to be the HS or not is a little rich for my blood.
Sounds too much like other things.
Haha... A Camel Sized one would do for me...
“Based on your list of superstitions, your opinion of Mormons must be that they are rubes who just fell off the truck. Are you going to confront Mitt Personally? Scripture says that if you have a problem with some one, you should confide the offense in them first before slandering them to the world.
If you don’t want to bring it up with him, why should you keep bringing it up on Free Republic?”
Except, we aren’t just electing a President, but his appointees and the appointees of those appointees. I’d love to confront Mitt personally with 20 or thirty questions, but the likelihood of that happening is zilch, unless you have a backdoor, but even then I wouldn’t expect a straight answer. Look, I currently work for an ex-Mormon, and I just bumped into a full Mormon who was my boss a few years ago. And I was partnered with a Temple Mormon for 12 years. And I was on a Mormon’s campaign for County Commissioner. And I have a lot of background links to Reid.
So, don’t try and suggest I’m just blowing wind about things I don’t know about. I have even more links I haven’t even mentioned.
As far as being rubes, I’ll tell you the story of the Mormon hydroponics farm in Pahrump, just a quarter mile down the road from the Cherry Patch brothel (or it might have been the Chicken Ranch, I forget). They believed the secret to their success was “magic” water they were getting out of some blessed filter they’d been sold. Their lawyer, who was trying to hire me, was the one who first told me about Kolob and becoming a God as we drove back from Pahrump one evening. Then there was the wife of the one partner who ran up a bill on company money calling Walter Mercado, the psychic. So yes, quite a few of them are rubes.
“we aren’t just electing a President, but his appointees and the appointees of those appointees.”
Good point. A Mormon puts his religion above everything else. The Mormons see Romney as the greatest boon to their cause since Joe Smith.
I posted this on another thread, it seems to fit on this one:
On this thread alone, there is enough said that were Romney to be
a) Repub nominee,
b) elected POTUS,
it would mean the end of the Republican party...and by extension Republican conservatism.
If the Mormons think FReepers (including myself) bringing up all sorts of facts about Joseph Smith and the false claims of the BOM, they haven’t seen nothing yet. The Democrats, with their trusted allies, the MSM, will bring up every fact we have posted, plus a host more.
I can just see it now. Journalists harping on how Republicans claim to be the party of decent people, yet look what they have as their standard bearer! Romney, who represents the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith, one of the biggest frauds and outright adulterers in American history.
Here’s another one: “We Democrats have been warning the American public for years about their tendency towards theocracy, and their opposition to the separation of church and state. In Romney, look what they have for their standard bearer! (here’s where they will, no doubt, quote one of Joseph’s Smith’s Muslim-like plans for theocracy.
We could list a thousand other similar things about Mormonism that, you can be sure, the Democrats are accruing to themselves right now in case Romney becomes the nominee.
Mark it down, if Repubs elect Romney they will rue the day!
Clarification on this statement:
Here’s another one: “We Democrats have been warning the American public for years about the pro-God Republican party’s tendency towards theocracy, and their opposition to the separation of church and state. In Romney, look what they have for their standard bearer! (here’s where the Dems will, no doubt, quote one of Joseph’s Smith’s Muslim-like plans for theocracy.
“We could list a thousand other similar things about Mormonism that, you can be sure, the Democrats are accruing to themselves right now in case Romney becomes the nominee.
Mark it down, if Repubs elect Romney they will rue the day!”
Don’t have time right now, but I have the most historical links about what happened at Far West and Nauvoo. Eerily similar to what is going on now.
I’d be very interested to see what you have on Far West and Nauvoo.
You see what I am getting at, fast coyote? If Romney becomes the nominee, or POTUS, the dems and their political arm, the MSM, will be dragging up all the facts against Mormonism they can drag up to discredit Republican conservatism.
Now, once this happens, where is that going to put all these assorted FReepers defending the possible election of Romney? Some of which are irreligious, and could care less, others who are Christians who should know better, yet, for expediency’s sake, say they will vote for Romney. It is going to put them, and all of us conservatives, in the VERY awkward position of having to defend Mormonism against the attacks from the left.
This is why I say it would mean the end of Republican party conservatism. I, and many others, once the lies of Mormonism are brought to light by the dems, will have no choice but to distance ourselves from the Republican party for electing Romney in the first place.
Those of us who know what Mormonism really is, being put in such a place as to have to defend Mormonism? No how, no way!
So we will be rid of Harry Reid, Orin Hatch, Mitt Romney and the Osmonds courtesy of the Democrats and the MSM?
Why have they waited so long? Where they not privy to the evils of Mormonism prior to Mitt Romney’s candidacy? Better late than never.
Thats a deal I’ll take. After we get rid of the chieftains that I just listed, then we can make a special prison for that Tabernacle Choir and all the mischief that they have caused.
A Calvinist gives much the same answer.
Why are you pinging me?
As far as your assertion that Harry Reid, Orin Hatch or the Osmonds have anywhere near the influence of POTUS by lumping them together with mitt, you are absolutely wrong.
Harry was elected by his constituents in Nevada and he has no more power in the Senate than the other 100 Senators, and the same can be said of Orin Hatch. If the members of their States elect them, then so be it. How can I complain?
The Osmonds are has-been entertainers who have been in obscurity since the 1980’s when, voila....the flipper’s candidacy has brought them into the spotlight again. Who cares what stupidity entertainers possess. We see it in all facets of the entertainment world. Why waste time even mentioning them/it.
Mormons can be good people. I’m was born to a couple, and I married another (still married BTW). I have nothing against Mormons as a people. I do have a problem that Mitt’s delusions as POTUS might interfere with his decisions (as is my right). I understand well, the amount of cognitive dissonance required to believe in Mormonism. I believed for over 25 years. Mormonism is NOT a Christian organization. If they would quit claiming to be so, and fuzzing the lines that separate the dogma, I have no problem with them. Once they come clean and tell the truth and let others make a decision based upon truth and facts, then I have no problem whatsoever with Mormonism.
Because God has spelled it out in the Bible.
Acts 16:31-32. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord your God...
Also read Romans 8 - or better yet, all of Romans.
Some Christians consider the Church of Christ a cult.
Either you are God or a liar.
My fear is that the GOP is so divided that Rudy and the RINO faction of the party will win the nomination with no more that 30% support.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.