Posted on 11/16/2007 8:41:02 AM PST by Sue Bob
Barry M. Goldwater, Jr. endorsed Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul for president.
“America is at a crossroads,” said Mr. Goldwater. “We have begun to stray from our traditions and must get back to what has made us the greatest nation on earth or we will lose much of the freedom we hold dear. Ron Paul stands above all of the other candidates in his commitment to liberty and to America.”
“Leading America is difficult, and I know Ron Paul is the man for the job,” he added.
(Excerpt) Read more at usadaily.com ...
you got him there. but I’ll get you :)
Ron Paul is like Huck. They are both very pro-life but they sell out the country to our enemies. It doesn’t even make sense to even consider these traitors
****Mighty interesting understanding of history. What college did you attend, Indoctrinate U?****
As I understand it, the first draft lottery was in late 1969. Almost all of our troops were withdrawn after the 1973 Paris Peace Accords.
Given the situation and the thinking of the time, I think that was a very short time period.
While great advances have been made in prosthetics, in most cases, they are not as good as the real thing. E.g. if a position redeployment requires speed, a person with a prosthetic lower leg could slow everyone down because the other soldiers would want to protect him.
****In fact; ask Allegra how many Soldiers have gotten (or are close to getting) a college degree while deployed.***
I have a lot of respect for the “average” person. I think a lot of that comes from growing up in a small town. You have to deal with the whole range of people. People, growing up in urban areas, tend to deal only with people in their own socioeconomic level. Having an I.Q. of 150 doesn’t make a person any better than a person with an I. Q. of 100. One of my better friends from a while back, a National Merit Scholarship winner, chose to make his living as a union pipe fitter.
However, I do think our societal elite do, in general, look down on people who can not assimilate previous knowledge quickly. Look at JFK’s best and brightest. There is no doubt that Robert McNamara(sp?) was one of the best and brightest in terms of native intelligence, but there is also no doubt that he made many mistakes in the Viet Nam war. He even admitted that himself in later years. Any street wise kid, with an I. Q. of 100, would tell you that you don’t defeat your enemy by hurting him a little bit more than he hurt you. You crush him or hurt him so bad that he will just leave you alone.
Well, this post is too long so I will cut it off here.
(1) And you don't see me on any of threads lauding Thompson's pro-life bona fides.
(2) Thompson and Paul do not have the same position. Both agree that Roe v. Wade was nothing other than legislation from the bench and bad law. Ron Paul has explicitly stated that the individual states should decide whether the unborn are persons are not - Thompson's position has not been made explictly, but his position implies that he believes that the unborn are to be considered persons in law and fact and cannot be abandoned to state legislatures. I'll wait for further clarification.
(3) The NRLC may know more about Thompson's complete position than I do.
In fact, I recall a lot of FReepers defending Fred over it.
Again, not I.
So Fred's pro-life but the guy who actually delivered babies and saw an abortion and co-sponsored two bills that would have nuked Roe vs Wade is somehow pro-abortion.
(1) I never said that Ron Paul was pro-abortion. I pointed out that his position demonstrates that "states' rights" ideology is higher on his list of priorities than the sanctity of human life. According to his position, the people of, say, RI, have a right to vote to kill unborn children.
(2) The fact that he is an obstetrician does not automatically make him pro-life. Plenty of obstetricians have performed abortions.
To make my position perfectly clear: I believe that Ron Paul's entire political philosophy is based around parlor games of one-upmanship as to who can perfectly emulate the political theories of Lysander Spooner. To him it is all a game of how to interpret the Constitution from the most radically anti-Federalist stance. Standing up like an American for our troops in the field, fighting terrorism, defending unborn life - to him these concerns are secondary and he considers them only insofar as they are useful or inconvenient for the philosophical games he likes to play.
There’s a whole lot more to that war then you realize.
Here is an Airman’s perspective.
The other fine people I’m pinging can help flesh out the story a lot more.
The U.S. sent advisers and gave financial aid throughout the 1950s. In Feb, 1950, the French requested U.S. economic and military aid, stating they would leave the nation to Ho Chi Minh and communism if they did not get it. We gave them about $75 Million. On 25 Jun 1950, President Truman sent eight C-47s to Saigon. By August of 1950 the first contingent of the U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) arrived in Saigon.
In 1952 we supplied one third of the cost for the French military effort. By 4 Jan 1953 we deployed the first sizable contingent of Air Force personnel (not including those already attached to the MAAG). The Air Force personnel were primarily Aircraft Maintenance and Supply Technicians.
In Apr 1953, after Ho Chi Minh staged a major offensive into Laos and threatened Thailand (yes, Thailand ;-) )President Eisenhower sent C-119 transports and loaned additional cargo planes to the French (aircraft only, no crews). In Jan 1954 he sent an additional 300 Airmen to service the Aircraft at Tourane and at Do Son Airfield near Haiphong. At this time President Eisenhower explained the importance of U.S. presence in Viet Nam with his infamous Domino Theory.
In the Early 1960s The Air Force began constructing more airfields and barracks. Operation Ranch Hand was initiated in Jan 1962.
By the way, the Crews who flew the Ranch Hand missions would initiate new members by toasting with a Dixie cup of the defoliant (Agent Orange). They lived.
In Feb 1965 the Viet Cong attacked Camp Holloway killing eight Americans. We responded with Operation Flaming Dart, which consisted of air strikes on military targets in the North including the barracks near Dong Hoi. Within a month Rolling Thunder, the first sustained bombing campaign, was initiated. It lasted from March 1965 through 1968.
In May of 1965, about 10,000 U.S. Air Force personnel served in Viet Nam. The number nearly doubled by the end of 1968. The Air Force mission included Civil Engineers to build and maintain bases that supported Air Craft and the Security Forces who guarded them.
Enlisted Airmen served on aerial gunships as both aerial gunners and loadmasters. The pilot would “aim” the guns by speed, bank and altitude. The gunners mainly kept the quick-firing weapons loaded.
Through 1963-64, we operated under ridiculously restrictive rules of engagement (sound familiar?) in a pathetic effort to maintain the definition of the U.S. role as “advisory.” The situation in Viet Nam continued to deteriorate.
Around November of 1963 President Johnson took office (after President Kennedy’s assassination). After the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and a Senate resolution in 1964 the U.S. role was greatly expanded (under a democrat). However throughout all those previous years the USAF constantly worked closely with the Vietnamese Air Force in an attempt to develop their warfighting capabilities.
In January 1969 President Nixon took office and announced an end to U.S. combat in Southeast Asia as one of his primary goals. In May 1969, U.S. ground troops already began withdrawing. Air support units remained with no noticeable force reduction.
When the Communist National Liberation Front crossed the DMZ in 1972, President Nixon ordered harbors mined. Peace talks stalled completely. The president ordered Linebacker II, an 11 day intensive bombing campaign against Vietnamese cities by B-52s out of Anderson AFB Guam. The intense bombing campaign compelled the North Vietnamese to resume negotiations.
The military draft continued until 27 Jan 1973. On 29 Mar 1973 the last U.S. troop left the country. Even with a cease fire agreement, fighting continued until 22 April, when the President of South Vietnam resigned. The North and South were officially unified under a Communist regime on 2 Jul 1976.
Read the book “Stolen Valor” by B.G. Burkett. He smashes a lot of the “poor dumb soldier” and Viet Nam War myths. He provides the facts and he backs them up!
If you look at our “societal elite” of today you see a lot of high school drop outs and semi literate clowns.
John Kerry’s people made a big deal out of President Bush’s grades. Later we learned Kerry’s GPA was a point lower then President Bush’s. And that included Kerry getting a “B” in French, which is almost his native tongue!
Al Gore flunked out of divinity school.
Do I really need to talk about the Hollywood elite? Cher called the President “Stupid.” IIRC she quit school after 8th grade! Go to the websites of Barbara Streisand and Rosey O’Donnel. Check out their intellectual arguments! Most of Hollywood's finest either didn’t finish high school or dropped out of college within their first year.
I’ll try to find the stats for Military personnel who have degrees. It’s above the national average. Also, our substance abuse and suicides are below national average.
And before you voice an opinion; find out about the soldiers with the prosthetics. They are doing some amazing things! They WILL surprise you! And your comment about other soldiers getting hurt trying to protect them; stop second guessing them and just understand they know what they're doing. I'm sure they'll contact you if they should need your advice.
And never forget -
It is the Veteran, not the reporter who protected our freedom of the press.
It is the Veteran, not the poet, who has guaranteed our freedom of speech.
It is the Veteran, not the campus organizer, whose spilt blood and torn flesh ensured that we have the freedom to demonstrate
It is the United States Military member, regardless of Branch, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, that has given the protester freedom to burn the very same flag.
You “Sleep safe in your bed because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf.”
When you pray remember to thank God for your warriors.
Here is an Airman’s perspective.
The other fine people I’m pinging can help flesh out the story a lot more.
The U.S. sent advisers and gave financial aid throughout the 1950s. In Feb, 1950, the French requested U.S. economic and military aid, stating they would leave the nation to Ho Chi Minh and communism if they did not get it. We gave them about $75 Million. On 25 Jun 1950, President Truman sent eight C-47s to Saigon. By August of 1950 the first contingent of the U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) arrived in Saigon.
In 1952 we supplied one third of the cost for the French military effort. By 4 Jan 1953 we deployed the first sizable contingent of Air Force personnel (not including those already attached to the MAAG). The Air Force personnel were primarily Aircraft Maintenance and Supply Technicians.****
Well, it was a different time and a different era.
You neglected to mention that there was a unification vote for VietNam in the 50’s and the country elected the Paris educated Ho Chi Minn. France, with the aid of the US, disallowed the election and started the Vietnam War.
This was consistent with the thoughts of the time. In the US, people were building bomb shelters in their back yards and kids in school were practicing what to do in case of a nuclear attack.
I was a bit young for the 50’s, but, in the 60’s, I believed in the domino theory.
Actually, I was a bit lucky in the 50’s, as after sputnik went up, students that were good in math and sciences were sought after. And I was very good in those areas. So I got a free ride through college.
You seem old enough to remember those times. Our military was constrained. We couldn’t bomb in Cambodia, but the North Viets could use Cambodia to send supplies to their troops in the south.
As Sherman said, “War is hell.” Any time we go to war, it should be an all out war. No quarter asked and no quarter given. Or as the gunners on helicopters said during Vietnam, “kill them all and let God sort them out”.
The elites seem to think that we can fight wars in “nice” ways. *&**& that.
Bush won’t even give pardons to the two border guards that shot a dope smuggler in the @ss. Give me a *&*&* break.
If you think that is the direction our country should be heading, then vote for anyone except Ron Paul.
You seem old enough to remember those times. Our military was constrained. We couldn’t bomb in Cambodia, but the North Viets could use Cambodia to send supplies to their troops in the south.
The elites seem to think that we can fight wars in “nice” ways. *&**& that.
Bush won’t even give pardons to the two border guards that shot a dope smuggler in the @ss. Give me a *&*&* break.
If you think that is the direction our country should be heading, then vote for anyone except Ron Paul.
- I’m not all that old, but I study military history from a wide variety of sources and I am on active duty. I pretty much started at the point where the U.S. got involved with the war.
Of course today we’re constrained. We can’t go after weapon suppliers in Iran, we have Hollywood freaks like Sean Penn visiting them and Iran’s President violating our soil at the invitation of the UN.
- Those “elites” include John Kerry who illegally took part in negotiations in France. I’ve met good men who were tortured in Viet Nam POW camps while listening to recordings of Kerry and Fonda. Other “elites” include Pelosi, Reid and Murtha.
The Vietnamese torturers were bad enough. The Chinese and Russians were worse. The Cubans were absolutely BRUTAL. The fact that these nations had representation in the POW camps has never been reported very well.
- The President should pardon the two border guards, but that is irrelevant to this subject.
- And I support Duncan Hunter. Again that is irrelevant to the subject.
One thing I did neglect to point out. Every war has “Lessons Learned.”
In Viet Nam we knew we were the hottest ticket out there! No one could fly as fast or precise as us! The problem was that wasn’t what we needed. We needed a platform with adequate armor that would fly LOW and SLOW and loiter around the target while pouring ordinance on to it.
In spite of all of the road blocks certain celebrities and politicians throw in front of us, and the treasonous behavior of the media the fact is we are making progress. We will win if we choose to win.
Too bad you can not count coup by getting another Ron Paul supporter kicked off the forum.
There are several other Ron Paul supporters here who’s English skills are much better than mine. I even offered one of them to let me take a dive if it would lower the heat on him/her.
Reasoned debate has been a policy of the conservatives for a long time. I think it was Dick Armey after the republican victory in 94 said something like,”Republicans fear that the voting public will not understand their voting positions, Democrats fear that the voting public will understand their voting positions.”
Marines?! Gung-ho?! What a revelation; thank you for telling us.
If you think that is the direction our country should be heading, then vote for anyone except Ron Paul.
There are several other Ron Paul supporters here who’s English skills are much better than mine. I even offered one of them to let me take a dive if it would lower the heat on him/her.
jmeagan,
Are you obsessing over Ron Paul?
Since YOU didn’t answer my last post, I take it you are going to quit trying to bait ME.
GB
LOL - project much? Actually, being that I am about halfway around the world from you, we have these things called "time zones" that indicate that I just might have been asleep. We also work here, so I don't stay on FR waiting breathlessly for your replies. Oh, and don't forget...you posted to me first.
After having read your post, it really doesn't warrant much of a response, does it? It's rife with remarks making assumptions about and insulting my character, which seems to be a common talent among Ron Paul fans. Considering the source, it really doesn't bother me a bit. If it makes you feel better about yourself, knock yourself out.
Too bad you can not count coup by getting another Ron Paul supporter kicked off the forum.
LOL - so you blame me for that. He had no responsibility for it, did he? How typical. He flung insults at me, whined when he received the smackdown he deserved and then got snippy with the Admin Mod, but I suppose to a Ron Paul fan, that would all be my fault. Funny.
I even offered one of them to let me take a dive if it would lower the heat on him/her.
Let me guess....I am supposed to be impressed with how noble you are? Too late. ;-)
Gotta love these Paulies throwing whatever lame argument they have out there in an attempt to get us to see it their way. They never realize that they are wasting their time, do they? I also love it when people back in the States try to tell me how the troops feel about all of this. They crack me up. They're so very transparent.
And speaking of reenlistments, what’s your take on the wounded (even those who are fitted with prosthetics) begging for waivers, staying in, reenlisting and going back to the war zones?
Paulies, like the media, bury their heads in the sand on things like that.
If you’re so hot on defeat please go work for the enemy. But stop trying to demoralize our side!
Very well said. I wish these cultists could really see themselves.
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
As I said before, you seem to have a very low threshold for what constitutes an insult.
****LOL - so you blame me for that. He had no responsibility for it, did he? How typical. He flung insults at me, whined when he received the smackdown he deserved and then got snippy with the Admin Mod, but I suppose to a Ron Paul fan, that would all be my fault. Funny.*****
No, as I said before, your little tit for tat with him was a bit too juvenile for me to pay attention to. I was commenting on your gloating later on, with one of your buddies.
****Let me guess....I am supposed to be impressed with how noble you are? Too late. ;-)****
You can take it any way you want. I had just returned to this forum after a 2-3 year break from political forums and I wasn’t aware of what had happened here since I left.
Well, I am gone for the day to go see my sainted mother. Have a nice day.
Or perhaps you don't have an understanding of good manners. I've noticed that quite a few Ron Paul groupies tend to be socially maladjusted.
No, as I said before, your little tit for tat with him was a bit too juvenile for me to pay attention to. I was commenting on your gloating later on, with one of your buddies.
More than likely, you're just older than we are and have forgotten or never understood youthful exuberance. I've known some people who were born that way and have taken everything around them, including themselves, too seriously. I don't relate to those people at all.
Anyway, this has become tiresome for me now. On to other things. When I don't respond to your next post, it may have nothing to do with time differences. Have a nice life.
“As Sherman said, “War is hell.” Any time we go to war, it should be an all out war. No quarter asked and no quarter given. Or as the gunners on helicopters said during Vietnam, ‘kill them all and let God sort them out’.”
That’s why war fighting must be left to professional warriors and not be directed by politicians and idiots.
Exactly.
That's why armchair generals are about as useful as boobs on a boy. ;-)
Prior to the change in leadership, we were almost at the point of needing to fulfill chorus of Kenny Rogers song the Gambler. Fortunately, we got a new deal with the new leadership and didn't have to "fold 'em." Had we continued with the old leadership, folding 'em probably would have been the outcome. Even with a half full glass at that point, we were never going to fill the rest of it.
Sure it's easy to sit here in the states and give opinions and ideas. But for everyone of you (and I mean that kindly), there are plenty of other just as informed, just as in the trenches if not more so and just as dedicated that were saying for a long time we were spitting in the wind with what we were doing.
Apparently what a guy that has been long out of politics thinks is a big deal. Oh wait though, he has a famous name and that makes this "news". Barry Goldwater (the dead one) was a libertarian type and he'd probably like Ron Paul. His rich kid says so. Let's do the wave...
Gee, I wonder what Barry III thinks. Yawn.....
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