The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise

Daily mail ^ | MATTHEW HICKLEY

[secretagent]

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed. At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

[Sandreckoner]

Old story. Didn’t happen the way it’s portrayed. If people want to use it as a scare tactic to increase funding for our own submarine force, though, I’m all for it.

[Caipirabob]

One guess on the chinese sub's surfacing... They played the game well and managed to get inside the screen. However, it took so long and/or relied on favorable currents/drifting etc. that they had no battery left for a mock attack or evasion/extraction and were forced to surface to recharge and/or exchange air. Or maybe the screen commander decided to prosecute the contact and they were forced to surface. That could be from an active sonar lashing, mock depth charges (Soviets used to do that to us)...Or maybe the sound of a 688 opening the outer doors of its torpedo tubes about 3000 yds astern... ;-)

Thanks for the insightful post.

[Yorlik803]

If the Hilliary gets elected, look for a fire sale on all military tech stuff for cold, hard cash...

[wastedyears]

They’re the Chinese, I have no idea.

[aroundabout]

What can they possibly “try” along the lines of aggressive action that would not bring a response that would at the same time be swift and totally devastating? Despite the fact their sub sneaked up on us, which could just as easily been caused by a sailor asleep at the switch as any new Chinese technology, their (and that of any other Nation) total destruction is assured in any all out conflict with this country.

[flowerplough]

For modern navies, there is no ship more enviable than the aircraft carrier, eh? No ship is a more tempting target to the modern submarine, either. A recent post here described how a South African submarine “sank” every NATO ship involved in an exercise off the Cape. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1891291/posts)

Today’s best torpedos are capable of triple-digit speeds while completely submerged, and many submarines are capable of firing some version of guided or cruise missile. Today’s aircraft carriers may be useful for anti-insurgent force projection in an imbalanced, suppressive way, but in matched naval conflict, the carriers will probably be crippled, or even underwater, fairly quickly.

[Tallguy]

On one hand, it might be nice to drive them off immediately upon detection. That basically sends the message: don't even try it, you'll fail and die. On the other hand, letting them think they can get close without being detected builds up a false sense of security on their part. Makes them overconfident, and allows you to easily kill them once you have authorization.

Interesting points. I think that deception/gamesmanship are in order when you're dealing with a peer -- which the Soviets were in the Cold War (in terms of sub numbers). OTOH, the Chinese PLAN are neophytes. I think that you would do the opposite & aggressively prosecute any sonar contacts involving their boats. As you said: send the message "don't even try".

[Young Werther]

I was a Top Secret-SIOP ESI cleared officer while in the Air Force.

We were tracking this sub with acoustical techniques and satellite imagery. Remember when we recovered a Soviet Submarine that had sunk in the Pacific. We knew where it was and used a CIA built deep water recovery ship to pull that sub out of 16,000 feet of water.

Of course the last paragraph contains classified material so now I have to shoot you. Please come to DFW and I'll only be to glad to maintain this classified material until the next doofus posts this type of material.

Quae Cum Ita Sunt!

Sub K129

[A.A. Cunningham]

Jeff Head (one of Free Republic’s resident experts on Naval issues)

That's debatable.

[Wolfie]

Then, while your kids are playing video games, they'll turn out millions of smart, motivated engineers and begin the process of your dismantlement.

But when the power brokers of our society are getting filthy rich from the process, there's not much We The People can do to stop it.

[secretagent]

Presidential candidate and current Ranking Member of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, today called on former Governor Mitt Romney to send a "clear statement" to the leadership of the company he founded, Bain Capital, to terminate a proposed business deal with a controversial Chinese corporation seeking to acquire U.S. defense contractor 3COM.

Bain Capital is attempting to form a business arrangement with Huawei Corporation, a Chinese corporation founded by an officer of the Peoples Liberation Army of Communist China, which faces allegations of assisting Saddam Hussein in the targeting of U.S. aircraft and in helping the Taliban develop surveillance equipment.

I think the deal has already gone through and Romney has refused to comment, save that he is no longer involved with Bain.

At the very least, this deserves a big discussion amongst the candidates.

Reminds me of the Halliburton subsidiary doing business with Iran.

[secretagent]

If you let people build all of your stuff for you, you'll at first have to show them how to do it. Once you've done that, they'll figure more out for themselves (or steal what they need). Then, while your kids are playing video games, they'll turn out millions of smart, motivated engineers and begin the process of your dismantlement.

Related to your concern, I found:

This lack of U.S.-born technically proficient professionals is not only an issue for our global competitiveness. It is also a matter of national security. Defense companies, and laboratories and organizations like the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, need to hire workers who can receive a high-level security clearance. With an aging technical workforce in our defense industry, we are likely to see many companies unable to fill positions that are critical for our national security.

http://www.jhu.edu/gazette/2006/01may06/01brody.html

[secretagent]

Effective Anti-Submarine Warfare capability by ANY navy is essentially wishful thinking — by and large.

Why?

Ignorant layman's question: Can't sonar and computers create a picture of all the relevant objects of interest?

[secretagent]

Old story. Didn’t happen the way it’s portrayed. If people want to use it as a scare tactic to increase funding for our own submarine force, though, I’m all for it.

How did it happen?

Are submarines the best defense against the penetration described in the article?

[secretagent]

What can they possibly “try” along the lines of aggressive action that would not bring a response that would at the same time be swift and totally devastating? Despite the fact their sub sneaked up on us, which could just as easily been caused by a sailor asleep at the switch as any new Chinese technology, their (and that of any other Nation) total destruction is assured in any all out conflict with this country.

Human error due to a relaxed peacetime environment - plausible. Might not have happened if tensions were higher, with everyone at station.

[rlmorel]

Okay, A.A. Cunningham...I didn’t say he WAS the resident expert, I said he was ONE of the resident experts. I phrased that deliberately.

He knows more about navies and their capabilities than the VAST majority of people who might post here or in most other places...the fact that people disagree with him on various issues doesn’t change that. By and large, when I have read his posts, I have found he knows his stuff, at least according to my level of expertise, which is more than most people I know.

Doesn’t make me an expert by any means, but I have always felt confident I can discuss naval issues intelligently (except when it comes to the Law Of The Sea Treaty and the USN’s supposed support for it...I am completely perplexed by that...) Plus, I am more comfortable with the aviation end of things rather than the surface warfare end of things (as I think you are IIRC) but I read Proceedings when I can, and have tried to stay on top of things.

[secretagent]

Today’s best torpedos are capable of triple-digit speeds while completely submerged, and many submarines are capable of firing some version of guided or cruise missile.

What about anti-torpedo measures?

[secretagent]

Post #51 meant for you.

[hellbender]

Yes. These are the kinds of factors completely ignored by people obsessed by the theoretical (and actual) economic benefits of unrestricted free trade. There is much more to life than economics, anyway. During WWII, we were quickly able to convert large numbers of skilled people and factories full of machinery to war needs. Now many of those skills and factories are in China.

[RightWhale]

How recent is this incident? The one last spring?