Posted on 10/11/2007 2:00:29 PM PDT by Spiff
To: Conservative & Evangelical Leaders
In about 100 days we will likely have a Republican nominee for president. Most political observers believe it a near certainty that this nominee will face Hillary Clinton in the general election. While most people think this election cycle started too early, I’m finding that few people realize the primaries are almost upon us—and how compacted the primary calendar is. Within about 30 days after the last college football bowl game is played, primaries (and an all-important caucus) will be held in Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, Michigan, South Carolina, Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Missouri, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Utah and West Virginia! (At least a dozen of these will fall on the same day—February 5, 2008.) As certain as it seems that Hillary will represent the Democratic Party, it now appears the GOP representative will be either Mayor Rudy Giuliani or Governor Mitt Romney (based on polls in early states, money raised and on hand, staff and organization, etc.). And, if it is not Mitt Romney, we would, for the first time in my memory, be faced with a general election contest between two “pro-choice” candidates. I decided over a year ago to help Mitt Romney; and while I have not been (and will not be) paid one dollar, I have worked harder on behalf of a candidate this past year than in any election of my lifetime. Why? In large part because the next president is almost certain to appoint two-to-four Supreme Court justices. When I began surveying the landscape of potential candidates I was looking for three things:
2. Someone who has proven experience and competence to lead and manage large enterprises; 3. Someone who can actually win the nomination (without which it is obviously impossible to challenge or beat Hillary Clinton, or any other democrat—people who certainly don’t share our values).
The President of the United States is the CEO of the largest enterprise on planet earth, presiding over a nearly $3 trillion budget and some 2 million employees (the size of the workforces of General Motors, General Electric, Citigroup, Ford, Hewlett-Packard and AT&T combined). Mitt Romney has already been the chief executive of one of the most successful investment management firms in the world—Bain Capital, with nearly $6 billion under management; a Winter Olympic Games (Salt Lake City, 2002), where he turned a $379 million operating deficit into one of the most profitable Games ever; and the state of Massachusetts, where he eliminated a $3 billion deficit without raising taxes or borrowing money. That kind of experience convinces me Mitt Romney could lead, manage and govern America during a critical time in world history. But can he actually win (my third criterion)? After he was the runaway winner of the important Iowa straw poll in August, TIME magazine’s political columnist Joe Klein wrote, “Romney now has to be considered a strong favorite to win the Republican nomination. And another prediction: if nominated, Romney will be formidable in the general election.” Like it or not (and most of us don’t), these campaigns have become obscenely expensive. It has been estimated that the two party nominees may well spend in excess of $100 million in the primaries, and several times that in the general election. One insider told me Hillary may spend half a billion dollars before it’s over! This means a successful candidate must be able to come up with this kind of money. Through the first three quarterly reporting periods, Republican candidates reported total revenues as follows:
These numbers are important for many reasons. It takes money to hire staff, recruit volunteers, send out mailings, travel the country, organize events (Mitt told me recently he had done 462 events just in Iowa so far!) and to buy TV commercial time. CNN recently reported that Romney just became the first candidate in history to buy 10,000 TV commercials at this point in the presidential campaign (by comparison, John McCain was purchasing his first commercials the same weekend).
Gov. Romney is also leading by 4%-11% or more in polls in a number of early states, such as Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan, Nevada—and one recent poll now shows him leading in South Carolina. Historically, a candidate who wins the Iowa caucuses and several of the early primaries benefits from a tremendous amount of national exposure and fundraising momentum.
As this race heats up and we approach the final stretch of the nominating process, I have three growing concerns:
2. Talk of a possible third party candidate draft movement only helps Giuliani (or, worse yet, Clinton), in my view. While I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. James Dobson that not having a pro-life nominee of either major party presents an unacceptable predicament, I would rather work hard to ensure we do nominate a pro-life candidate than to launch an 11th-hour third party campaign. Mike Huckabee affirmed this concern when he told the Washington Post last week, “I think a third party only helps elect Hillary Clinton.” 3. Perhaps most troubling to me is the idea I keep hearing that electing someone like Hillary Clinton would “actually be good for the conservative movement,” since it will “galvanize our forces, enable us to build our mailing lists and raise more money…therefore, I’m not going to vote for anyone this time around.” Well, I am not willing to risk negatively changing the Supreme Court, and our entire judicial system, for the next 30 years in exchange for building our conservative mailing lists and operating budgets for the next four or eight years. That, in my opinion, is selfish, short-sighted and dangerous.
Here is what I believe is at stake in this election:
[By the way, I am also troubled by skeptical sentiment in some corners about the legitimacy and sincerity of Gov. Romney’s “conversion” on the abortion issue. I always thought the pro-life movement existed for the purpose of influencing hearts and mind on the issue of life, and historically, we have celebrated converts to our side. We embraced Ronald Reagan (who signed a liberal abortion law as governor of California), Norma McCorvey (“Jane Roe”), and others—and I am prepared to accept and embrace Mitt Romney. I’ve also told him he will be held accountable on this if elected.] Now, I fully recognize some evangelicals take issue with me for supporting a Mormon for the office of president, and I respect their concerns. Indeed, I had to deal with the same concerns in my own heart before offering to help Gov. Romney. But I concluded that I am more concerned that a candidate shares my values than he shares my theology. (If I believed similar theology was paramount in a president, I would be writing this memo urging support of Mike Huckabee.)
As a Southern Baptist evangelical and political conservative, I am convinced I have more in common with most Mormons than I do with a liberal Southern Baptist, Methodist, Roman Catholic or a liberal from any other denomination or faith group. The question shouldn’t be, “could I vote for a Mormon,” but, “could I vote for this Mormon?” After all, Mitt told me there are Mormons he couldn’t vote for (I presume Harry Reid, for example); and there are Southern Baptists I couldn’t vote for (Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, to name a few).
Incidentally, if one-third of “white evangelicals” voted for Bill Clinton, the second time (a Southern Baptist who doesn’t share our values on most issues); can we not at least consider supporting a Mormon who does share our values? Noted conservative columnist Robert Novak wrote this month that Mitt Romney is “the only Republican candidate unequivocally opposed to gay marriage and the only one who signed the no tax increase pledge.” On May 17, my friend of nearly 30 years, Jerry Falwell, went to Heaven. In addition to being my first employer and like a second father following the death of my father in 1979, Jerry was my political mentor in many ways. I learned from him, some 25 years ago, the value of working closely with people of other faiths and religions who shared our convictions about the sanctity of life, support for the state of Israel, the sacredness of marriage and the importance of the family unit, the dangers of pornography, and the value of God in public life. Consequently, the Moral Majority (and many subsequent organizations) was built with coalitions of evangelicals and likeminded Roman Catholics, Jews and yes, Mormons.
Just about six months before his death, Jerry accepted my invitation to a meeting with Gov. Romney at his home outside Boston. He joined me, and about 15 other evangelicals, for an intimate discussion with the Governor and his wife Ann. Jerry was one of several that day who said, “Governor, I don’t have a problem with your being Mormon, but I want to ask you how you would deal with Islamic jihadists…or with illegal immigration…or how you would choose justices for the Supreme Court…,” and so on.
While Jerry Falwell never told me how he intended to vote in the upcoming election, I think I know how he would not have voted. I also know he would not have “sat this one out” and given up on the Supreme Court for a generation. I am wholeheartedly convinced that Mitt Romney can be trusted to uphold the values and principles most important to me as a political conservative and an evangelical Christian. Again, I am not being paid, and I am not interested in a job in a Romney Administration (I would not accept one even if offered, as I’m still raising three teenagers). Neither is my public relations firm involved in any way. I am involved because I believe the stakes are high, perhaps higher than ever before in my life. In closing, I would respectfully urge fellow conservatives and evangelicals to consider doing the following:
2. Follow the news and the primary calendar; being familiar with the process and aware of the urgency of the schedule. 3. Encourage people to vote and not “sit this one out,” merely because they aren’t excited about a candidate. 4. Encourage people to support the candidate who best represents their values; whether or not they share your theology. 5. Galvanize support around Mitt Romney, so Rudy Giuliani isn’t the unintended beneficiary of our divided support among several other candidates—or, worse yet, so we don’t abdicate the presidency (and the future of the Supreme Court) over to Hillary Clinton.
/rmd
From: Mark DeMoss (Personally)
Date: October 9, 2007
Subject: The 2008 Presidential Election 1. Someone who most closely shared my values;
So how did I settle on Mitt Romney? After spending months researching his life and his record, and hours with him (and his wife and staff) in his home, his office and on the road, I am convinced his values practically mirror my own—values about the sanctity of life, the sacredness of marriage, the importance of the family, character and integrity, free enterprise and smaller government. But more than one candidate shares my values; which leads me to my second criterion.
1. Currently, conservatives (whether evangelical or not) are dividing their support among several candidates. In the long run, this only helps Rudy Giuliani, who clearly does not share our values on so many issues.
1. Pray fervently for this election.
I believe we can make a difference—the difference in this election—and if Mitt Romney should become the 44th president of the United States, I’m confident he won’t forget how he got there. I hope you’ll join me. Thank you for your consideration of these things.
“As you know from past conversations, FastCoyote has been corrected on these point on many occasions. He knows what he said is not true. At this juncture, it’s a 9th commandment issue.”
You’ve been corrected multiple times yourself to no avail, apparently you belleve Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness (Lie) only applies to others. So, it is clear one of us is a nutcase and/or a dissembler. Therefore I ask our dear readers to judge who is likely to have a belief structure built of cards that leads inherently to False Witness.
My opponents believe the following: Joseph Smith somewhere before 1820 had God appear to him in the flesh and tell him that all other Christian churches were an abomination. Later the angel Moroni appears to him and shows him where to dig up Golden tablets beneath a rock which he then translates into a history of a tribe of Jews coming by ship to America in 600 BC following a magic brass orb. These Jews become the Nephites and Lamanites, build cities, have wars and eventually become the American Indians.
Now the way Joseph Smith translates these Golden tablets (while they are still buried on the hill no less), is to sit in a room and look into his hat through a seer stone that a friend plucked out of the mud while digging a well (the seer stone he claims is the magical Urim and Thurim of the Bible). As if this isn’t unbelievable enough, Smith later “translates” the wrapping from a traveling Egyptian mummy show and claims these are the Book of Abraham, though at that point hieroglyphics had not been deciphered and as we now know the wrappings were a mundane list of gods. Moreover, there are thousands of Egyptian mummies now known so Smith supposedly was the lucky one who got the only wrappings with the Book of Abraham!
Joseph gathers adherents, who he helps get driven out of Ohio and later Illinois by overruning communities and threatening them with his pocket army. He also finds time to run a bank scam with unbacked tender at Kirtland Ohio (also collapsing the Monroe bank), and it is for this reason that he has to excommunicate a number of prominent founding members who also realize he is a crook. Smith almost gets a 1000 of his men butchered at Far West, gets sent to prison, and after escape then hightails it to Nauvoo Illinois where he becomes Mayor, Lt. General of the Nauvoo Legion and part owner of most of the real estate. He also has himself ordained king and sets up a shadow government called the Council of 50, just in case the US falls into turmoil so he can save the day.
Apparently, to relieve the stress of being a fallible but infallible Prophet, he tells young and older ladies that “God will strike me dead” if they don’t marry him, and he collects 33 notches. A local group of dissident Mormons tries to start the Nauvoo Expositor to expose these deeds (and the fact he is wife stealing), but Joseph and his brother Hyrum have the press destroyed (censorship and/or excommunication seems to be a repeated way for Mormons to stifle dissent).
The end result of this brouhaha is that Joseph, and Hyrum, and a couple others are taken to jail and a mob comes and shoots Joseph and Hyrum dead. When one reads the account of the Illinois governor’s actions, it becomes plain that he was stuck in a hard place trying to stave off a Civil War, so the early history of Mormonism is as much one of settlers trying to control a slick grifter’s fraud as having anything to do with religious bigotry against the sheep who followed Smith.
So dear readers, while there is much more to this history than this thumbnail (and I certainly can be wrong in minor detail), you have enough to make a likely decision about who is thinking clearly, the anti-Romney faction, or those who for religious reasons are lockstep for Mitt.
The Mitt group must believe in seer stones, magical Golden tablets, translations of hieroglyphic prior to their decipherment and polygamy being a revelation before it wasn’t a revelation. Add to this a large panoply of doctrines like the ability of men through their good works to become Gods of their own planets, God living on a planet near the star Kolob near the center of the universe, creating spirit children with celestial wives, the ability of underwear to be blessed against devils, etc. etc.
Now, knowing that I believe in none of this hooey, while Mitt Romney and his followers believe in all of it lock stock and barrel (and much much more, blood atonement anyone?), I think some of you may suspect which side has their facts together, and which side has had their eggs scrambled. You need to ask, Who MUST engage in False Witness to keep their house of cards standing?
I think the reader may also want to ask whether they want a president who will have to defend this convoluted mishmash of doctrine and dubious history through the next long eight years.
"If the people will let us alone we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come upon us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was 'the Koran or the Sword.'"
Sources: 1. Larry Coates, In the Mormon Circles, p 47.
2. Sally Denton, American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857, p 20.
If Romney supporters think that Hillary will not use his religion against him, they are nuts.
Hillary wants Rudy or Romney. No one else. Except maybe Ron Paul.
Mormonism and Islam, an essay of comparison by an LDS:
http://www.cumorah.com/muslimsandlatterdaysaints.html
David Stewart, Jr.
Latter-day Saints recognize Muslims as brothers and sisters, children of our Heavenly Father, with whom we can find much common ground. LDS Prophet and Apostle Gordon B. Hinckley stated: “we value our Muslim neighbors across the world.” Latter-day Saints respect the strong family values and moral accomplishments of Muslims as well as Islamic contributions to science, literature, history, philosophy, medicine, and the arts. While there are many differences between Muslims and Latter-day Saints in doctrine and practice, we acknowledge these differences with respect rather than criticism. Latter-day Saints extend a hand of friendship to Muslims everywhere.
Muhammad and Revelation
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Muhammad was an inspired teacher raised up by God to teach His word. The Book of Mormon teaches: 'For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore, we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true' (Alma 29:8). In a letter written on February 15, 1978, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declared: “Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father. The great religious leaders of the world such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the Reformers...received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.... Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come... Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.”[1]
LDS Apostle George Q. Cannon stated: “I believe myself that Mahomed, whom the Christians deride and call a false prophet and stigmatize with a great many epithets --I believe that he was a man raised up by the Almighty, and inspired to a certain extent by Him to effect the reforms which he did in his land, and in the nations surrounding. He attacked idolatry, and restored the great and crowning idea that there is but one God. He taught that idea to his people, and reclaimed them from polytheism and from the heathenish practices into which they had fallen. I believe many men were inspired who lived after him and before him, who, nevertheless, did not have the Holy Priesthood, but were led by the Spirit of God to strive for a better condition of affairs and to live a purer and higher life than those by whom they were surrounded were living. But while this was the case, it was the Spirit of God that did it.”[2] Latter-day Saints accept all truth, wherever it may be found, as part of our religion -- whether in the Quran or in other good books.
God
Latter-day Saints and Muslims believe that God is just, merciful, all-knowing and all-powerful. Latter-day Saints recognize the terms God and Allah to refer to the same being in different languages. The Quran teaches: “Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends all things in (His) Knowledge” (Quran 65:12, Yusuf Ali edition). The Book of Mormon teaches: “Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend“ (Mosiah 4:9).
Christ and Muhammad
The Quran teaches that Jesus (Isa) was a great teacher and prophet sent by God. Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as the son of God and Savior of the world. The Quran testifies that Allah sent Isa to teach truth: “And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah” (Quran 5:46).
The Quran teaches that Jesus should be revered: “Behold! the angels said: ‘O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah’” (Quran 3:45). It testifies of the many miracles performed by Jesus. Sura 3:47-51 states:
“She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?’ He said: ‘Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): 'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
God strengthened Jesus by the Holy Spirit and gave Jesus power to perform miracles, heal the sick, raise the dead. The Quran states: “Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold!… thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs...” (Quran 5:110). Muhammad never claimed to have performed any miracles.
The Quran further states of Jesus: “He said: ‘I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again).’ Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute” (Quran 19:30-34).
The Quran teaches that Jesus was taken up to heaven, where he dwells with God: “Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise” (Quran 4:158). Muhammad’s grave is in Medina today. In contrast, Muhammad was told to seek forgiveness of his sins: “Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe…” (47:19, see also 40:55). Muhammad never claimed to be sinless.
Faith, Works, and Judgment
God will return to judge the world “When the earth is pounded to powder, And thy Lord cometh, and His angels, rank upon rank. ” (Quran 89:21-22). The Book of Mormon teaches that all men will one day “stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body” (Alma 5:15). Latter-day Saints strive to “endure to the end” to be found worthy, through Christ’s grace, to return to God (1 Nephi 31:15).
Both Muhammad and Christ taught that even after doing good works, the grace of God is still necessary. The Quran teaches: “If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour)” (Quran 16:61) It continues: “One Day every soul will come up struggling for itself, and every soul will be recompensed (fully) for all its actions, and none will be unjustly dealt with. But verily thy Lord, to those who do wrong in ignorance, but who thereafter repent and make amends, thy Lord, after all this, is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Quran 16:111,119). The Bible teaches that "God is a merciful God" (Deuteronomy 4:31). The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi writes: “it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).
The Quran and the Book of Mormon teach that God looks upon our actions and our intentions. The Quran states, “Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)? Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness), and encourages not the feeding of the indigent. So woe to the worshippers who are neglectful of their prayers, those who (want but) to be seen (of men), but refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs” (Quran 107:1-7). The Book of Mormon teaches, “For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such” (Moroni 7:8-9).
The Quran, Bible, and Book of Mormon all warn against placing our hearts on riches. The Quran teaches that God’s chastisement comes “because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith” (Quran 16:107). The Bible teaches, “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19-21).
The Quran teaches: “Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend” (Quran 4:125). Jesus taught, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40).
The Quran and the Book of Mormon both teach the importance of obeying God’s laws. The Quran teaches, “Then, he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) heavy, Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction. But he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) light, Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit” (Quran 101:6-9). The Quran states that “those who believe in Allah and work righteousness, He will admit to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: Allah has indeed granted for them a most excellent Provision” (Quran 65:11) The Book of Mormon teaches: “And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness” (Mosiah 2:41).
The Pillars of Islam
Similarities can be found between the “Five Pillars of Islam” and LDS beliefs. Latter-day Saints and Muslims believe that there is one God, and that we must have no other gods before Him. Second, Muslims pray five times daily toward the holy city of Mecca. Latter-day Saints pray daily, personally and with their families, a minimum of five times daily -- before all meals, when rising in the morning, and when retiring in the evening. We also believe that we should always have a prayer in our hearts. Third, Muslims participate in almsgiving, or giving one-fortieth of one's income to the poor. Latter-day Saints believe in the law of tithing and return one-tenth of all of our increase to the Lord. Fourth, Latter-day Saints and Muslims both believe that fasting can bring us closer to God. While Muslims fast from food and drink from sunrise to sunset from morning to evening throughout the entire month of Ramadan, Latter-day Saints believe in fasting for twenty-four hour periods once a month, or more frequently if the occasion warrants. Finally, Muslims strive to perform a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in one's lifetime. The travels of the early Latter-day Saint pioneers are in many ways comparable to those of devout Muslims.The sacrifices made by many LDS families to attend the temple at least once in a lifetime, and much more frequently, if opportunities allow, are in many ways similar to the sacrifices made by Muslim pilgrims to Mecca.
The Christian Apostasy
Muslims and Latter-day Saints both recognize that after the coming of Jesus, divisions and apostasy arose in the Christian church. The Quran teaches: “Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan” (2:253). Latter-day Saints recognize the departure of many Christians from the teachings of the Apostles and the loss of divine authority in the Church, as well as the restoration of God’s church through the prophet Joseph Smith.
Latter-day Saints and Muslims acknowledge that writings in the Bible, while inspired and truthful, underwent some changes as they passed through the hands of careless scribes and translators and conniving priests. Latter-day Saints and Muslims also recognize that many doctrines of non-LDS Christianity come not from the Bible, but from various creeds and non-apostolic works of the so-called 'early church fathers,' as well as from pagan Greek and Roman traditions. Latter-day Saints do not accept the non-biblical creeds widely regarded by other Christian faiths.
The Divine Light and Revelation
Latter-day Saints receive guidance through ongoing revelation from living prophets and apostles today. While Jews accept the holy writings constituting the Old Testament and sectarian Christians claim to believe both the Old and New Testaments, Muslims recognize the Old and the New Testament and the Quran as inspired. In each case, a certain amount of revelation is accepted, but no more. Each group draws a line cutting themselves off from ongoing, contemporary revelation. This diverges from the Lord's pattern of constant, ongoing revelation to His people throughout all of recorded scripture. Latter-day Saints differ from Jews, Sectarian Christians, and Muslims in that we accept not only the Lord's ancient words in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but we accept the words and instruction that the Lord continues to give through living prophets and apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In the Book of Mormon, the Lord states: “because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished” (2 Nephi 29:9).
God is eternal and unchanging, and He loves his children as much today as in the time of Abraham or Muhammad. He revealed to Abraham and Muhammad many particulars relating to even seemingly small aspects of daily life. Yet we face challenges today that did not exist at the time of Abraham or Muhammad. Would God withhold counsel from us today in great matters, when he taught Abraham and Muhammad even in small ones? Latter-day Saints believe that God in his wisdom has provided living prophets on earth today, in whom the divine light dwells, to provide us with direction. God also provides a way in which all those who live worthily and receive authorized ordinances can receive within themselves the divine light.
God sends the Holy Spirit to help us to identify truth. The Quran teaches: “Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims” (Quran 16:102). God promises that if we study, pray, and ask God sincerely, the power of the Holy Ghost can help us to know that the Book of Mormon is true (Moroni 10:3-5).
Divine Authority
The Quran teaches: “Those who dispute about the signs of Allah without any authority bestowed on them, there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of) greatness, which they shall never attain to: seek refuge, then, in Allah. It is He Who hears and sees (all things)” (Quran 40:56) The Bible teaches that ministers of God must be called and ordained by authorized leaders with divine authority: “And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron” (Hebrews 5:4). The divine authority held in ancient times by apostles and prophets was restored in modern times through the prophet Joseph Smith.
The Book of Mormon
Like the Prophet Muhammad, Book of Mormon prophets like Alma and Moroni lived in times when many people held false beliefs and denied the one true God. The people of God were often persecuted and faced many hardships. God empowered chosen prophets to call people to repentance and teach divine truths. These truths are recorded in the Book of Mormon.
Practical Religion
For Muslims and Latter-day Saints, religion is not simply a philosophy, but a way of life. Latter-day Saints believe that gospel principles must govern daily conduct. The fruits of faith in the lives of Latter-day Saints are easily identified. Latter-day Saints and Muslims share in common a strong focus on the family. The family is recognized as the fundamental unit of society and as ordained by God. While lackadaisical attitudes towards morality and divorce are held by many non-LDS Christians, observant Latter-day Saints and Muslims highly value chastity, fidelity in marriage, and familial responsibility. Latter-day Saints are commanded by the Lord to “bring up children in light and truth” (D&C 93:40). U.S. research shows that active Latter-day Saint youth are far less likely to be involved in immoral conduct than their non-LDS peers.[3] Latter-day Saints, like observant Muslims, do not drink alcohol. Latter-day Saints observe a strict law of health that includes a healthy diet and abstinence from tobacco products and other harmful substances. Adherence to these teachings brings practical benefits. One medical research study found that observant Latter-day Saints had a life expectancy eight to eleven years longer than the U.S.average. [4] Latter-day Saints also receive many other blessings as they strive to obey God’s laws. LDS Prophet and Apostle David O. McKay stated that “the purpose of the gospel is . . . to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature.”
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hold their Muslim neighbors around the world in high regard. Latter-day Saints extend an invitation to all people to learn of God, of His son Jesus Christ, and of His restored gospel, so that others may also share in the blessings of the gospel in this life and in the next.
[1] Apocryphal Writings and the Latter-day Saints, ed. C. Wilfred Griggs, p.29
[2] George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses 24:371
[3] Top, Brent L, and Bruce A. Chadwick. “Helping Teens Stay Strong.” Ensign. March. 1999, p. 27.
[4] Enstrom, James E., "Health Practices and Mortality among Active California Mormons, 1980-1993," in James T. Duke (ed.), Latter-day Saint Social Life. Provo: Religious Studies Center, 1998, pp. 461-471.
[”...has it’s revelations based on a guy looking into his hat through seer stones...”~
False, and you know it. Which makes it a lie.]
Actually, it makes you a BIG FAT LIAR because everyone from Emma Smith on say him translate through his hat. You just are stuck with the sanitized version the LDS provides the sheep.
*********************
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html
Emma Hale Smith, Joseph’s wife, was the first person to serve as his scribe. Here is her testimony as recounted to her son Joseph Smith III:
“In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.” 3
whitmer-cap.jpg (32649 bytes)David Whitmer was one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. The majority of the translation work took place in the Whitmer home.
“I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”4
“I, as well as all of my father’s family, Smith’s wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation”5
Martin Harris, also one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon, provided this information to his friend Edward Stevenson, who would later become part of the LDS First Council of Seventy.
harris-cap.jpg (32397 bytes)”Martin Harris related an incident that occured during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say “Written,” and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.” 7
cowdery-cap.jpg (30410 bytes)Oliver Cowdery was Joseph’s principal scribe for the Book of Mormon, and another of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.
“These were days never to be forgotten — to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history, or record, called ‘The book of Mormon.” (spelling and emphasis preserved from original)6
As described later in this article, Cowdery’s use here of the terms “Urim and Thummim” was a common designation among Mormons after 1833 for Joseph’s seer stone.
Other Eyewitness Testimony
The testimonies of Emma Smith, Whitmer, Harris and Cowdery are corroborated by other eyewitnesses.
Isaac Hale, the father of Emma Hale Smith, stated in an 1834 affidavit: “The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods.”8
The first-hand account of Michael Morse, Emma Smith’s brother-in-law, was published in an 1879 article in the RLDS publication Saint’s Herald: “When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph’s placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes — Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down.”99
Joseph Knight, Sr., an early member of the Church and a close friend of Joseph Smith, wrote the following in a document on file in the LDS Church archives: “Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and darkened his eyes then he would take a sentance and it would appear in brite roman letters then he would tell the writer and he would write it then that would go away the next sentence would come and so on. But if it was not spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated.” (spelling preserved from original)10
Joseph Used a Magic “Seer Stone” Years Prior
to Publication of the Book of Mormon
It has been well documented by Mormon historians that for a number of years before he produced the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was heavily involved in various magic-occultic practices, including the use of a magic “seer stone” or “peep stone.”11 Perhaps the most complete account of this evidence is given by former Brigham Young University history professor D. Michael Quinn in his book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, revised ed. (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1988). Indeed, in 1826, four years before the publication of the Book of Mormon, Joseph was arrested, jailed, and examined in court in Bainbridge, New York on the charge of being “a disorderly person and an impostor” in connection with his use of a peep stone to search for buried treasure. While the evidence indicates he was found guilty of this charge, the young Joseph was apparently released on the condition that he leave the area.12
Prior to the 1971 discovery of the original court record of these charges, Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley, of Brigham Young University, wrote that “if this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith.”13 This court examination (now proven) is indeed damning and most unseemly: For it means that Joseph Smith was engaged in fraudulent money-digging with the same magic “seer stone” method in 1826 — the very time period in which, according to his First Vision story, Joseph was receiving yearly visits from Moroni (1823-1827) regarding recovery of the Book of Mormon plates. This surely raises the question of whether, in his story of locating and translating the gold plates, he was simply trying to legitimize his use of an occult “seer stone” by carrying it over to a religious context.
*************************
There ya go, shows who the LIAR is.
But go ahead, let’s debate whether Smith translated through his hat, or through seer stones, and where the stack of Golden tablets mysteriously disappeared to. That will make my point even more.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Muhammad was an inspired teacher raised up by God to teach His word. The Book of Mormon teaches: 'For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore, we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true' (Alma 29:8). In a letter written on February 15, 1978, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declared: “Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father. The great religious leaders of the world such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the Reformers...received a portion of God's light.
Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.... Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come... Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.”[1]
LDS Apostle George Q. Cannon stated: “I believe myself that Mahomed, whom the Christians deride and call a false prophet and stigmatize with a great many epithets --I believe that he was a man raised up by the Almighty, and inspired to a certain extent by Him to effect the reforms which he did in his land, and in the nations surrounding. He attacked idolatry, and restored the great and crowning idea that there is but one God. He taught that idea to his people, and reclaimed them from polytheism and from the heathenish practices into which they had fallen. I believe many men were inspired who lived after him and before him, who, nevertheless, did not have the Holy Priesthood, but were led by the Spirit of God to strive for a better condition of affairs and to live a purer and higher life than those by whom they were surrounded were living. But while this was the case, it was the Spirit of God that did it.”[2] Latter-day Saints accept all truth, wherever it may be found, as part of our religion -- whether in the Quran or in other good books.
That’s great, and I applaud him on his family values, and his faithfulness, and willingness to obey God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply”, yet it’s what he stands for, or the lack thereof, that I can’t get past.. Issues matter to a great degree to me, respectfully.
As I said I am really a Tancredo guy, but could go for Duncan Hunter (and like a lot of what Ron Paul stands for, except for the war..).
No he didn’t he claimed he was for “equal rights for gays”, distanced himself from Ronald Reagan, supported the “woman’s right to choose”.. Leagalized gay marriage even though not ordered to do so by the gay-state supreme court, on and on..for the “assault weapons ban”.
I could go on, but which is the real Mitt?
Ah, good, now we’re getting somewhere. Please, do pay attention this time.
~”My opponents believe the following: Joseph Smith somewhere before 1820 had God appear to him in the flesh and tell him that all other Christian churches were an abomination. Later the angel Moroni appears to him and shows him where to dig up Golden tablets beneath a rock which he then translates into a history of a tribe of Jews coming by ship to America in 600 BC following a magic brass orb. These Jews become the Nephites and Lamanites, build cities, have wars and eventually become the American Indians.”~
Mostly true. To be more precise, Christ was speaking of “creeds” as abominations, not churches. The exact quote is as follows (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1):
“ 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.””
~”Now the way Joseph Smith translates these Golden tablets (while they are still buried on the hill no less), is to sit in a room and look into his hat through a seer stone that a friend plucked out of the mud while digging a well (the seer stone he claims is the magical Urim and Thurim of the Bible).”~
False. The Urim and Thummim were found accompanying the Book of Mormon, along with a handful of other artifacts. A “seer stone” had nothing to do with the translation.
~”As if this isn’t unbelievable enough, Smith later “translates” the wrapping from a traveling Egyptian mummy show and claims these are the Book of Abraham, though at that point hieroglyphics had not been deciphered and as we now know the wrappings were a mundane list of gods. Moreover, there are thousands of Egyptian mummies now known so Smith supposedly was the lucky one who got the only wrappings with the Book of Abraham!”~
Almost true. Smith did procure a set of papyri that accompanied an Egyptian mummy. The papyri were translated into the Book of Abraham (a fascinating read, BTW). Wrappings had nothing to do with it. I have no idea what actually happened to the mummy - the poor chap was incidental in the transaction.
~”Joseph gathers adherents, who he helps get driven out of Ohio and later Illinois by overruning communities and threatening them with his pocket army.”~
Um, no. It’s called immigration. Problem is, the local communities didn’t exactly like suddenly being outnumbered by all these voting Mormons. The “pocket army” was the militia, a rather common organization at the time.
~”He also finds time to run a bank scam with unbacked tender at Kirtland Ohio (also collapsing the Monroe bank), and it is for this reason that he has to excommunicate a number of prominent founding members who also realize he is a crook. Smith almost gets a 1000 of his men butchered at Far West, gets sent to prison, and after escape then hightails it to Nauvoo Illinois where he becomes Mayor, Lt. General of the Nauvoo Legion and part owner of most of the real estate. He also has himself ordained king and sets up a shadow government called the Council of 50, just in case the US falls into turmoil so he can save the day.”~
Lots of untruths woven in between facts. I don’t have the energy or time this evening to unravel it all - I’m 2 weeks from finishing school, and it’s crunch time. Suffice it to say that the above segment is twisted and tweaked to suit your purposes. It is based on the truth, but is not true. A bit like Media Matters’ MO, really.
~”Apparently, to relieve the stress of being a fallible but infallible Prophet, he tells young and older ladies that “God will strike me dead” if they don’t marry him, and he collects 33 notches.”~
True, though it had nothing to do with stress as far as I know. But he did have 33 wives, though the consummation of those marriages is not clear in many cases.
~”A local group of dissident Mormons tries to start the Nauvoo Expositor to expose these deeds (and the fact he is wife stealing), but Joseph and his brother Hyrum have the press destroyed (censorship and/or excommunication seems to be a repeated way for Mormons to stifle dissent).”~
True. Probably not a smart move. What you also leave out, though, is the call to violence against Mormons that had issued from that particular press.
~”The end result of this brouhaha is that Joseph, and Hyrum, and a couple others are taken to jail and a mob comes and shoots Joseph and Hyrum dead.”~
True.
~”When one reads the account of the Illinois governor’s actions, it becomes plain that he was stuck in a hard place trying to stave off a Civil War, so the early history of Mormonism is as much one of settlers trying to control a slick grifter’s fraud as having anything to do with religious bigotry against the sheep who followed Smith.”~
I don’t believe that the Illinois governor’s actions were ever criticized by Mormons. Were you, perhaps, meaning Governor Boggs of MO?
~”and I certainly can be wrong in minor detail”~
And in major ones, too, when you put your mind to it.
~”you have enough to make a likely decision about who is thinking clearly, the anti-Romney faction, or those who for religious reasons are lockstep for Mitt.”~
And of those who support Romney and are not Mormons? Or is all of Romneydom obviously mind-numbed Mormon robots in your world?
~”The Mitt group must believe in seer stones, magical Golden tablets, translations of hieroglyphic prior to their decipherment and polygamy being a revelation before it wasn’t a revelation.”~
We’ve addressed seer stones. The plates were not magical, just composed of gold, probably a gold and copper alloy of some sort. Undeciphered hieroglyphic translation seems not out of the realm of possibility if revelation from God is added into the mix. Polygamy... well, we’ve beaten that one to a slippery pulp.
~”Add to this a large panoply of doctrines like the ability of men through their good works to become Gods of their own planets,”~
Well, not through good works; rather through faith in Christ and repentance (which, of course, is manifest in good works). And you far underestimate human potential when you say “planet.” Try “universe.”
~”God living on a planet near the star Kolob near the center of the universe”~
Yep. We don’t concern ourselves too much with the details of that. A lot to learn about faith in Christ, first.
~”creating spirit children with celestial wives”~
True. A couple can be joined in eternity. That means they are joint inheritors of divinity, if they are worthy of the honor. And, we know God created us - His spiritual children. If we are to become as He is, would we not do the same?
~”the ability of underwear to be blessed against devils”~
False. The temple garment is a reminder to us about the covenants we’ve made with God in the temple. The garments, of themselves, are just cloth. The covenants - now THOSE are effective against devils.
~”blood atonement anyone?”~
Doesn’t exist. Never has, except amongst some early radicals. It’s never been a teaching of the LDS Church. But, then, you knew that already. You’ve just decided to ignore us every time we’ve corrected you.
~”I think some of you may suspect which side has their facts together, and which side has had their eggs scrambled. You need to ask, Who MUST engage in False Witness to keep their house of cards standing?”~
About 50% of what you’ve said in this most estimable post has not been true. Much of that, I’ve personally tried to correct you on in the past; I’ve seen others do the same with the rest. Yet, you continue to believe your little rumors and misrepresentations over the word of those who actually live and breath the doctrine. I suppose that’s your decision; but don’t stand there with false piety and claim that you’re telling the full truth when you know very plainly that you are not.
I will be the first to admit that we Mormons believe things that are very strange to mainstream Christians. Guilty as charged.
But we own the things we actually believe. I will admit to believing such things freely. You, though, insist on dictating to me what I believe, and when I protest, you accuse me of lying. It’s like me accusing you of lying when you protest to me that your mother, in fact, does not wear combat boots.
~”I think the reader may also want to ask whether they want a president who will have to defend this convoluted mishmash of doctrine and dubious history through the next long eight years.”~
You’re right. What you’ve outlined is indefensible. But, then, it’s not all true. a.) Why should Romney defend against lies such as those you’ve promulgated? b.) Romney’s theology is not on the ballot. Mitt Romney is. He doesn’t have to defend his beliefs in the political arena. c.) I only hope that Clinton makes the mistake of challenging him on his religious beliefs. I don’t think she’s that stupid.
Thank you, Gurn. I will study it further.
[~”...NEEDS celestial polygamy in order to populate all the planets...”~
False, and you know it. Which makes it a lie.]
This ought to be fun. What are celestial wives for if not to provide spirit children to populate planets? So are you telling me that one celestial wife has to pop out all the babies? Or does a planet god just have incest with his daughters? Or?????????
~”I could go on, but which is the real Mitt?”~
That’s a good question, and one with which I’ve struggled in the last few months. I’m uncomfortable with several of Romney’s past positions, and you listed some of them.
We’ve heard it before, but the fact remains that Romney has moved in the right direction. He’s called a flip-flopper, but he’s not flopped on this major issues - just flipped. Bush, Reagan, and many others have flipped in their political stances in the past. Thompson has several such issues that have vexed conservatives in the past. Why, then, does Romney deserve the harsh criticism he’s received?
If he were to come back and say, for example, that he respected Roe vs. Wade and would do nothing to change the status quo, then he’d lose me in an instant. But all the movement has been in the correct direction.
So, given the liberalism of Giuliani and the over-Federalism and lack of dynamic leadership qualities I’ve perceived in Thompson, Romney remains as the best of the viable options, given his impeccable family values, executive experience, infectious optimism, and other redeeming factors.
At some point, I suppose, you just have to make the decision to trust the guy or not. Until I’m given good reason not to, I think I will.
Remember Bush 41’s no new taxes pledge? He was dropped like a rock when he broke his word on that. I’m consoled by the fact that Romney knows very well where his power comes from, and if he betrays that source, he’s finished.
This is the kind of thing I like to see... While I’m a little turned off by Romney lately, it’s nice that SOMEONE is saying “Hey! We need to pick somebody or we’ll end up with Rudy by default!”
I am personally satisfied with Romney’s explanations for his policy changes, though I do think he’s a bit of an opportunist. I would feel comfortable with Mitt or Fred. Fortunately, I am not in one of the first states, which start the domino effect, so I’m not in a rush to pick one of them. When Colorado votes, I will pick the one of them who seems to be doing the best against Giuliani so as to avoid splitting that vote.
“You, though, insist on dictating to me what I believe, and when I protest, you accuse me of lying.”
The 9th Commandment charge was yours Bucko. My rule is not to start fighting till the other side has drawn first blood. I merely responded to your challenge.
Even you can’t claim I’m more than 50% wrong, that sure leaves a lot of things I’m right about. And I just creamed you on Joseph Smith translating through seer stones into his hat. So don’t call me a liar and I won’t respond in kind.
~”What are celestial wives for if not to provide spirit children to populate planets?”~
Who said creation of spiritual offspring had anything to do with sex, as you intimate? It might, I haven’t asked God about His sex life. But it’s a conclusion to which you’ve jumped. As a single guy in my 20’s, the concept of celestial sex does have its appeal; but it is not LDS doctrine.
~”So are you telling me that one celestial wife has to pop out all the babies?”~
What does “eternity” mean to you? Does it matter how long it takes? To repeat, who said creation of a soul has anything to do with “popping” out babies? Do try to think outside the... um... box, FC.
~”Or does a planet god just have incest with his daughters?”~
You need to find some different reading material, my friend.
Ideally, a husband and wife are coequal companions. This ideal persists in the eternities. You make is sound as if a Heavenly Mother would somehow be subservient. On the contrary.
~”The 9th Commandment charge was yours Bucko. My rule is not to start fighting till the other side has drawn first blood. I merely responded to your challenge.”~
Yep, I escalated it. But you do seem to take a particular delight in goading us with the same sad lies that we have to refute.
~”Even you can’t claim I’m more than 50% wrong, that sure leaves a lot of things I’m right about.”~
Sorry, 50% truth rating isn’t all that much to brag about. Tell you what, limit yourself to that 50% that is true, and you and I won’t have any problems. Heck, I’ll probably pipe up in agreement. Fair?
I’ll give you a great example. MHGinTN (who refuses lately to post to me) is an ardent opponent of the LDS Church. Well and good. When he criticizes the Church, he GETS HIS FACTS STRAIGHT. When he says something incorrect, he STOPS SAYING IT when he is informed of it.
He still comes to conclusions with which I disagree; but he hasn’t claimed we believe something we don’t in a long time. I greatly respect him for that. And, he makes a much stronger argument for why he is opposed to some of the doctrines of my faith.
You might try it. He hasn’t lost any of his “Flying Inman” cred by sticking to the facts, has he?
~”And I just creamed you on Joseph Smith translating through seer stones into his hat.”~
Uh, no. You might have missed where I said it was untrue. The “seer stone” is NOT the Urim and Thummim. And a hat had NOTHING to do with the translation of the Book of Mormon. Get your facts straight.
~”So don’t call me a liar and I won’t respond in kind.”~
Don’t lie, and I won’t call you a liar.
Who cares? We're electing them to run the national government, not to be America's spiritual authority for eight years. We have a little thing called "freedom of religion" in this country and "no religious tests", which prevents the government from having ANY say over religious doctrine.
We've had twelve years of Unitarian Presidents running this country. Try defending the convoluted mishmash of doctrine and dubious history of Unitarianism. It's a "Christian" church that won't even accept that Christ is divine. Did this have ANY effect on America when FOUR of its members were in the White House? NO.
~”But go ahead, let’s debate whether Smith translated through his hat, or through seer stones, and where the stack of Golden tablets mysteriously disappeared to. That will make my point even more.”~
I’m researching this point further. It appears a retraction on my part will be necessary.
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=10&table=transcripts
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=13
What appears to be the case:
-Smith used the Urim and Thummim during translation of the Book of Mormon.
-Smith also used the seer stone during the translation of the Book of Mormon. I was wrong on this point.
-When the seer stone was used, it was placed inside a hat. I was wrong on this point.
You learn something new every day. Thanks for the lesson, FC. I apologize for my accusations against you on this point.
The paradox is, if Mitt is nominated, his religion will keep him from being elected though his religion would have aout as much influence on his governing as Kennedy’s had on his governing ... actually, that’s not quite right; I doubt very seriously that we would have to worry about a frick and frack or a Marilyn Monroe being part of the Romney White House denizons.
denizons = denizens ... tired hands
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