“As you know from past conversations, FastCoyote has been corrected on these point on many occasions. He knows what he said is not true. At this juncture, it’s a 9th commandment issue.”
You’ve been corrected multiple times yourself to no avail, apparently you belleve Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness (Lie) only applies to others. So, it is clear one of us is a nutcase and/or a dissembler. Therefore I ask our dear readers to judge who is likely to have a belief structure built of cards that leads inherently to False Witness.
My opponents believe the following: Joseph Smith somewhere before 1820 had God appear to him in the flesh and tell him that all other Christian churches were an abomination. Later the angel Moroni appears to him and shows him where to dig up Golden tablets beneath a rock which he then translates into a history of a tribe of Jews coming by ship to America in 600 BC following a magic brass orb. These Jews become the Nephites and Lamanites, build cities, have wars and eventually become the American Indians.
Now the way Joseph Smith translates these Golden tablets (while they are still buried on the hill no less), is to sit in a room and look into his hat through a seer stone that a friend plucked out of the mud while digging a well (the seer stone he claims is the magical Urim and Thurim of the Bible). As if this isn’t unbelievable enough, Smith later “translates” the wrapping from a traveling Egyptian mummy show and claims these are the Book of Abraham, though at that point hieroglyphics had not been deciphered and as we now know the wrappings were a mundane list of gods. Moreover, there are thousands of Egyptian mummies now known so Smith supposedly was the lucky one who got the only wrappings with the Book of Abraham!
Joseph gathers adherents, who he helps get driven out of Ohio and later Illinois by overruning communities and threatening them with his pocket army. He also finds time to run a bank scam with unbacked tender at Kirtland Ohio (also collapsing the Monroe bank), and it is for this reason that he has to excommunicate a number of prominent founding members who also realize he is a crook. Smith almost gets a 1000 of his men butchered at Far West, gets sent to prison, and after escape then hightails it to Nauvoo Illinois where he becomes Mayor, Lt. General of the Nauvoo Legion and part owner of most of the real estate. He also has himself ordained king and sets up a shadow government called the Council of 50, just in case the US falls into turmoil so he can save the day.
Apparently, to relieve the stress of being a fallible but infallible Prophet, he tells young and older ladies that “God will strike me dead” if they don’t marry him, and he collects 33 notches. A local group of dissident Mormons tries to start the Nauvoo Expositor to expose these deeds (and the fact he is wife stealing), but Joseph and his brother Hyrum have the press destroyed (censorship and/or excommunication seems to be a repeated way for Mormons to stifle dissent).
The end result of this brouhaha is that Joseph, and Hyrum, and a couple others are taken to jail and a mob comes and shoots Joseph and Hyrum dead. When one reads the account of the Illinois governor’s actions, it becomes plain that he was stuck in a hard place trying to stave off a Civil War, so the early history of Mormonism is as much one of settlers trying to control a slick grifter’s fraud as having anything to do with religious bigotry against the sheep who followed Smith.
So dear readers, while there is much more to this history than this thumbnail (and I certainly can be wrong in minor detail), you have enough to make a likely decision about who is thinking clearly, the anti-Romney faction, or those who for religious reasons are lockstep for Mitt.
The Mitt group must believe in seer stones, magical Golden tablets, translations of hieroglyphic prior to their decipherment and polygamy being a revelation before it wasn’t a revelation. Add to this a large panoply of doctrines like the ability of men through their good works to become Gods of their own planets, God living on a planet near the star Kolob near the center of the universe, creating spirit children with celestial wives, the ability of underwear to be blessed against devils, etc. etc.
Now, knowing that I believe in none of this hooey, while Mitt Romney and his followers believe in all of it lock stock and barrel (and much much more, blood atonement anyone?), I think some of you may suspect which side has their facts together, and which side has had their eggs scrambled. You need to ask, Who MUST engage in False Witness to keep their house of cards standing?
I think the reader may also want to ask whether they want a president who will have to defend this convoluted mishmash of doctrine and dubious history through the next long eight years.
If Romney supporters think that Hillary will not use his religion against him, they are nuts.
Hillary wants Rudy or Romney. No one else. Except maybe Ron Paul.
Ah, good, now we’re getting somewhere. Please, do pay attention this time.
~”My opponents believe the following: Joseph Smith somewhere before 1820 had God appear to him in the flesh and tell him that all other Christian churches were an abomination. Later the angel Moroni appears to him and shows him where to dig up Golden tablets beneath a rock which he then translates into a history of a tribe of Jews coming by ship to America in 600 BC following a magic brass orb. These Jews become the Nephites and Lamanites, build cities, have wars and eventually become the American Indians.”~
Mostly true. To be more precise, Christ was speaking of “creeds” as abominations, not churches. The exact quote is as follows (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1):
“ 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.””
~”Now the way Joseph Smith translates these Golden tablets (while they are still buried on the hill no less), is to sit in a room and look into his hat through a seer stone that a friend plucked out of the mud while digging a well (the seer stone he claims is the magical Urim and Thurim of the Bible).”~
False. The Urim and Thummim were found accompanying the Book of Mormon, along with a handful of other artifacts. A “seer stone” had nothing to do with the translation.
~”As if this isn’t unbelievable enough, Smith later “translates” the wrapping from a traveling Egyptian mummy show and claims these are the Book of Abraham, though at that point hieroglyphics had not been deciphered and as we now know the wrappings were a mundane list of gods. Moreover, there are thousands of Egyptian mummies now known so Smith supposedly was the lucky one who got the only wrappings with the Book of Abraham!”~
Almost true. Smith did procure a set of papyri that accompanied an Egyptian mummy. The papyri were translated into the Book of Abraham (a fascinating read, BTW). Wrappings had nothing to do with it. I have no idea what actually happened to the mummy - the poor chap was incidental in the transaction.
~”Joseph gathers adherents, who he helps get driven out of Ohio and later Illinois by overruning communities and threatening them with his pocket army.”~
Um, no. It’s called immigration. Problem is, the local communities didn’t exactly like suddenly being outnumbered by all these voting Mormons. The “pocket army” was the militia, a rather common organization at the time.
~”He also finds time to run a bank scam with unbacked tender at Kirtland Ohio (also collapsing the Monroe bank), and it is for this reason that he has to excommunicate a number of prominent founding members who also realize he is a crook. Smith almost gets a 1000 of his men butchered at Far West, gets sent to prison, and after escape then hightails it to Nauvoo Illinois where he becomes Mayor, Lt. General of the Nauvoo Legion and part owner of most of the real estate. He also has himself ordained king and sets up a shadow government called the Council of 50, just in case the US falls into turmoil so he can save the day.”~
Lots of untruths woven in between facts. I don’t have the energy or time this evening to unravel it all - I’m 2 weeks from finishing school, and it’s crunch time. Suffice it to say that the above segment is twisted and tweaked to suit your purposes. It is based on the truth, but is not true. A bit like Media Matters’ MO, really.
~”Apparently, to relieve the stress of being a fallible but infallible Prophet, he tells young and older ladies that “God will strike me dead” if they don’t marry him, and he collects 33 notches.”~
True, though it had nothing to do with stress as far as I know. But he did have 33 wives, though the consummation of those marriages is not clear in many cases.
~”A local group of dissident Mormons tries to start the Nauvoo Expositor to expose these deeds (and the fact he is wife stealing), but Joseph and his brother Hyrum have the press destroyed (censorship and/or excommunication seems to be a repeated way for Mormons to stifle dissent).”~
True. Probably not a smart move. What you also leave out, though, is the call to violence against Mormons that had issued from that particular press.
~”The end result of this brouhaha is that Joseph, and Hyrum, and a couple others are taken to jail and a mob comes and shoots Joseph and Hyrum dead.”~
True.
~”When one reads the account of the Illinois governor’s actions, it becomes plain that he was stuck in a hard place trying to stave off a Civil War, so the early history of Mormonism is as much one of settlers trying to control a slick grifter’s fraud as having anything to do with religious bigotry against the sheep who followed Smith.”~
I don’t believe that the Illinois governor’s actions were ever criticized by Mormons. Were you, perhaps, meaning Governor Boggs of MO?
~”and I certainly can be wrong in minor detail”~
And in major ones, too, when you put your mind to it.
~”you have enough to make a likely decision about who is thinking clearly, the anti-Romney faction, or those who for religious reasons are lockstep for Mitt.”~
And of those who support Romney and are not Mormons? Or is all of Romneydom obviously mind-numbed Mormon robots in your world?
~”The Mitt group must believe in seer stones, magical Golden tablets, translations of hieroglyphic prior to their decipherment and polygamy being a revelation before it wasn’t a revelation.”~
We’ve addressed seer stones. The plates were not magical, just composed of gold, probably a gold and copper alloy of some sort. Undeciphered hieroglyphic translation seems not out of the realm of possibility if revelation from God is added into the mix. Polygamy... well, we’ve beaten that one to a slippery pulp.
~”Add to this a large panoply of doctrines like the ability of men through their good works to become Gods of their own planets,”~
Well, not through good works; rather through faith in Christ and repentance (which, of course, is manifest in good works). And you far underestimate human potential when you say “planet.” Try “universe.”
~”God living on a planet near the star Kolob near the center of the universe”~
Yep. We don’t concern ourselves too much with the details of that. A lot to learn about faith in Christ, first.
~”creating spirit children with celestial wives”~
True. A couple can be joined in eternity. That means they are joint inheritors of divinity, if they are worthy of the honor. And, we know God created us - His spiritual children. If we are to become as He is, would we not do the same?
~”the ability of underwear to be blessed against devils”~
False. The temple garment is a reminder to us about the covenants we’ve made with God in the temple. The garments, of themselves, are just cloth. The covenants - now THOSE are effective against devils.
~”blood atonement anyone?”~
Doesn’t exist. Never has, except amongst some early radicals. It’s never been a teaching of the LDS Church. But, then, you knew that already. You’ve just decided to ignore us every time we’ve corrected you.
~”I think some of you may suspect which side has their facts together, and which side has had their eggs scrambled. You need to ask, Who MUST engage in False Witness to keep their house of cards standing?”~
About 50% of what you’ve said in this most estimable post has not been true. Much of that, I’ve personally tried to correct you on in the past; I’ve seen others do the same with the rest. Yet, you continue to believe your little rumors and misrepresentations over the word of those who actually live and breath the doctrine. I suppose that’s your decision; but don’t stand there with false piety and claim that you’re telling the full truth when you know very plainly that you are not.
I will be the first to admit that we Mormons believe things that are very strange to mainstream Christians. Guilty as charged.
But we own the things we actually believe. I will admit to believing such things freely. You, though, insist on dictating to me what I believe, and when I protest, you accuse me of lying. It’s like me accusing you of lying when you protest to me that your mother, in fact, does not wear combat boots.
~”I think the reader may also want to ask whether they want a president who will have to defend this convoluted mishmash of doctrine and dubious history through the next long eight years.”~
You’re right. What you’ve outlined is indefensible. But, then, it’s not all true. a.) Why should Romney defend against lies such as those you’ve promulgated? b.) Romney’s theology is not on the ballot. Mitt Romney is. He doesn’t have to defend his beliefs in the political arena. c.) I only hope that Clinton makes the mistake of challenging him on his religious beliefs. I don’t think she’s that stupid.
Who cares? We're electing them to run the national government, not to be America's spiritual authority for eight years. We have a little thing called "freedom of religion" in this country and "no religious tests", which prevents the government from having ANY say over religious doctrine.
We've had twelve years of Unitarian Presidents running this country. Try defending the convoluted mishmash of doctrine and dubious history of Unitarianism. It's a "Christian" church that won't even accept that Christ is divine. Did this have ANY effect on America when FOUR of its members were in the White House? NO.
How preposterous!!!!!!!!!!!!! You’d have to be a fool to believe all that nonsense, right?
You just attacked my Faith. I love my Church. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He died for me.