"The War" (by Ken Burns) Part 4 of 7; Airing on PBS @ 7PM Central 9-26-07

pbs.org ^ | undated | PBS staff

[VOA]

This is a "heads-up" for the airing of "The War", the Ken Burns
(Florentine Films) production on PBS.

[colorado tanker]

Possibly, but segregation in the North was insidious and very strong, stronger in some ways than in the South. Perhaps it wasn't seen because it supposedly wasn't happening.

Agreed, it was much more hidden in the North.

[wbill]

Army air defense artillery was sure considered a combat branch

I was just assuming...didn't know the definition, and Grandpa talked about it so rarely that I wasn't sure. When I think "combat troops" I think of soldiers sitting in foxholes on the front line. Stereotypical, I suppose.

[colorado tanker]

When I was in the four combat branches were armor, field artillery, infantry and ADA. I think aviation has since been added, but I’m not sure. Then there are combat support branches, like the engineers. Combat engineers end up on the front lines alright. Then there are the service support branches, like ordnance. But it was a rear area ordnance (maintenance) company that got shot up in the Jessica Lynch affair (although she was Quartermaster Corps, a supply clerk).

[ex-snook]

"Maybe I didn't see the specific sequence, but I think Burns probably did get the general disappointment of many black soldiers for not getting put forward just like non-black units. ".

It would have been better if Burns included what the black soldiers actually did and not what they didn't do. They did a great job in driving the Red Ball Express into combat zones. I didn't see that yet. Maybe later. I know the December 1944 and afterward period from my own observations. I'll check it out.

BTW I don't see this so far as any 'hate America' exercise.

[VOA]

It would have been better if Burns included what the black soldiers
actually did and not what they didn't do.

Agreed.
Burns did give mention to the black military personnel re: the
Port Chicago incident and he have photos of black personnel doing
a relay of boxes on the beach at D-Day (or soon after).

BTW I don't see this so far as any 'hate America' exercise.

I probably do sound a bit harsh on Burns during this first viewing.
But I do try to give a "tip of the hat" when he does include items
I thought were probably "no-gos" for Burns (and/or the PBS administration).

Given the HUGE, ponderous nature of the subject, I do feel Burns
has done a decent job of TRYING to cover the experiences of
MILLIONS of participants in WWII in the documentary.

If I do post my negative views, it's my initial appraisal.
And I do admit I may be a BIT hypersensitive about political-
correctness and "victimology" having been in academia about 20 years
(including about a decade at The University of Communists
and Liberal A$$holes...as local police call it!)

[wbill]

Thanks for the definition....exactly what I was looking for. Also, thanks very much for your service.

And, as for the Jessica Lynch affair, it just goes to my point that the theater of war is a dangerous place to be. One of the guys I went to school with was killed in the first Gulf War when a SCUD hit his barracks...it was in Bahrain (maybe Saudi? not sure) a really good ways from the "front line".

That's why I never, ever trivialize the contributions a soldier makes to a war effort. And, why Burn's piece on our black soldiers was a little frustrating to me. Ordinance isn't going unload itself...someone had to do it!

[AU72]

was so slightly wounded he didn't even bother to apply for a PH,

If John Kerry tried to pull his PH jive in WWII he would have been wearing 3 boots.

[colorado tanker]

I hope Burns tells the story of the Red Ball Express, which chronologically would come tonight.

The problem was, as usual, Monty was lagging behind while Patton was racing toward Germany. So, we hadn't taken the big Belgian or Dutch ports, which meant we were still hauling most of our supplies from Normandy.

So the Red Ball Express was a network of roads, petroleum points, maintenance shops and other support, that kept a continuous flow of 2 1/2 ton trucks carrying badly needed supplies up to the front 24/7, and back again. A good many of the troops manning the Express were African-American and they did a splendid job.

[colorado tanker]

BTW, thanks for remembering the contribution of the support troops. There’s an old saying, “professionals talk logistics, amateurs talk tactics.” There’s some truth to that!

[Badeye]

I’ve only caught about thirty minutes of this documentary. I plan on buying it sometime in the near future, having found Burn’s work on the Civil War magnificent.

That said, I was very disappointed to hear him use this as a way of criticizing the WOT on Scarborough this morning.

[Badeye]

‘It would have been better if Burns included what the black soldiers actually did and not what they didn’t do. They did a great job in driving the Red Ball Express into combat zones.’

There was also a African American TD unit that had an incredible record you rarely hear about.

[mc5cents]

The entire series is WAY too superficial; and, in the rush to get through, the history suffers.

First of all, they acknowledge that fact at the beginning of each episode. Second, this is just another chapter in the on-going exploration of WWII. You have to read history, TV by it's very nature is "superficial". There are nuggets of wonderful information to be taken from any telling of the story of WWII. Take it for what it is. For example, I was brought to tears by the retelling of a story on Guadalcanal about the single shot fired and the moaning and crying of the person who had been shot. The person telling the story explains how it was night and you could not see anything, and they were all exhausted and just wanted to sleep but the cries of the wounded soldier keep them awake. He wished that the soldier would just die so they could sleep. In the morning he finds that it was his best friend. He has had to live with that thought for his entire life. It was something, I am sure, that happened a lot during that war.

[hoagy62]

The guy was a paratrooper, dropped on D-Day. He said the tube was full of morphine. If you were shot up, and you knew help wasn’t coming for a while, you were supposed to take off the cap and jam the needle in to stem the pain.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Sledge was from Mobile, and his book was heavily used by Burns.

[colorado tanker]

There was also a African American TD unit that had an incredible record you rarely hear about.

Are you talking about the Black Panthers? They were first rate.

[Fiona MacKnight]

I think the difference is this: during WW II many people believed that it was insensitive and tasteless to have a huge, lavish, costly public celebration when fellow citizens were worried for their sons and daughters and grieving for the dead. These young men and women (the nurses) were in danger because they were fighting for a common good, a good that would benefit all.

They still are. But do any of those sentiments register now? How many bridezillas, liberal or conservative, are willing to wear a pretty dress that costs less, and have a buffet instead of the same lavish sit-down with all the bells and whistles, and donate the rest of the money to the wounded veterans, or for body armour, if that is still needed?

Since theme weddings are so in vogue, why not a WW II-style wedding?

Something else. It's funny in retrospect, but very touching.

When I got engaged my NY Jewish liberal friend Sandy dropped in, looking grim. Sandy is my mother's age, and she remembers the war. She sat me down, and the lecture began. She began by telling me that I was now in a different role than the usual fiancée. I had to think and live differently. To paraphrase:
"Nothing you do and nothing that happens to you or the kids is important. If you break your ankle, he doesn't have to know about it. If one of the kids gets into trouble, don't bother him with it. If the kitchen catches fire, deal with it. The same goes for the kids. Be cheerful and funny. He needs that. Listen to him when he talks. I mean LISTEN. Don't forget he's where the fighting is. I heard him tell your cousin a mortar came through his tent. Lucky he wasn't there. He needs to focus on his safety and the safety of his men. He can't have his attention wandering because he's thinking about some trivial c*rap going on with you. He'll probably forget your birthday, the kids' birthdays, your anniversary and everything else. His mind will be on other things. You chose to marry a soldier. Deal with it."

I thought I heard the sound of Big Band music, and that if I looked in the mirror the face that looked back would be wearing red lipstick, hair encased in a snood. It was like a scene out of a very bad movie. For all that, Sandy's WW II-era advice was spot-on. And bless her heart, she was there for us.

[Fiona MacKnight]

With all due respect: those black guys were patriots. They WANTED to fight. They were willing to take the risk of being maimed, crippled or killed if only they would be allowed fight for their country. In that regard they were no different from your brother.

[Calvin Locke]

You do know that they trained black paratroopers, but they were primarily used as early, if not the first, "smoke jumpers", fighting forest fires in the NW US?

I think some of the fires were started by the Japanese fire balloons.

[Palladin]

I know. If only their present day counterparts were more committed to patriotism and less to hip-hop, drugs, marching with Al Sharpton, getting handouts, etc., I could have more respect for them.

[wbill]

I hope Burns tells the story of the Red Ball Express

If he doesn't, it would be a shame. The Red Ball Express kept Patton moving. I've always wondered what would have happened if Patton had gotten the supplies that Monty wasted in Market Garden. Might the European war been over in '44? Or, would we have wound up at war with Russia? Or...would the cold war have taken place in Poland/Eastern Europe instead of Germany and on a much smaller scale?

Just performing the (millionth? million millionth?) refighting of WWII....