Nah... but a Pinochio outfit could come in handy.
Posted on 09/24/2007 6:15:44 AM PDT by Boston Blackie
Two former U.S. Border Patrol agents sentenced to lengthy prison terms for shooting a drug-smuggling suspect have asked a federal appeals court to overturn their convictions, saying they were charged with a nonexistent crime and convicted after the jury was given improper instructions by the trial judge.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
I’ll second that from Bob. I would have been happy if there was evidence to prove C/R were innocent. I’d much rather they be innocent, because that would be better for all of us.
I’ll be happy if we find evidence to put him away for the “2nd load”. Even better if Sutton does it personally, just to prove he’s not the evil traitor that some people feel free to libel him as.
I wish people who just call other people traitors and crooks had to meet with those people and their families personally and explain to them why they felt justified in besmirching their character and trying to ruin their lives.
I don’t support the smuggler or his “handlers” now, so I don’t know why I would support him after he is charged and convicted of smuggling again. We know he was driving drugs once already.
Of course, you realise that the “Bush Administration” “Admitting” he is guilty wouldn’t make him any more guilty than the WND claiming he is guilty, or a convicted drug offender and his brother claiming he was involved.
It would take actual evidence, not an “admission”. See, you presume that he is guilty, and then you blame the lack of evidence on a conspiracy to cover up the evidence.
You should realise that we can’t normally convict someone on just the word of a convicted drug dealer, and that it’s not EASY to get people on drug charges, or we’d already have all the drug dealers in jail.
Further, Ortiz was known to have more drugs than what he claimed came from Davila, so it’s clear he was getting drugs from multiple deliveries, which means he was likely tied into some larger drug smuggling organization. There could be dozens of runners, dealers, smugglers, and growers that are part of that group.
As much as those who want to free C/R would take pleasure from Davila being busted for bringing in a load of pot, I hope you realise that a ton of marijuana is NOT a worthwhile bust in the drug “war”.
If Davala DID bring in drugs, it means he might know the supplier in Mexico, he might know the contacts in this country, so maybe he IS an informant now. Or maybe not, but maybe they have evidence but can’t try him yet because the evidence is also leading them to other more important fish and so they can’t reveal it.
Or you could believe that a highly honored and long-time public servant who is well-respected in legal circles is actually working for the drug dealers and for Mexico, and has put his career and his freedom in jeopardy because he’s really mad at two BP agents for shooting someone.
To me, emptying your magazine, reloading and shooting again isn’t trying to make him stop, it’s trying to make him dance because you’re pissed. Anyway you look at it, Compean is going to lose his job if that is the story he tells.
IMO, he might have told Ramos he thought he saw a gun right away, even if it was just to cover his ass in front of his partner who just took a shot and hit pay dirt. Ramos figures he better say the same thing for consistency.
I’m thinking that they’re thinking this guy is never going to go to the authorities because he is a drug mule and they would probably think he might have done something to incite the shooting ans throw his ass in a TJ jail.
Unfortunately, he tells his mother who tells the mother of a BP agent in El Paso and it all starts to unravel.
This is an interesting thing that bothered me. Why did Sanchez (El Paso BP) pursue this story? He had many options, he could have abided by the thin blue line wall of silence, he could have assumed that OAD was armed and incited the shoot. He could have told his Mom to tell OAD’s mom he should quit running drugs and then he wouldn’t get hurt.
But he reports the story knowing there will be an investigation. Conspiracy theorists say Sanchez is a mole for the drug cartel but that doesn’t wash because all reporting it will do is shine a light on that operation and we all know how the drug cartel love publicity. Plus it might end up exposing him and he could go to jail.
The only thing I can think is that there must have been secret rogue cells of BP agents who had been conducting illegal shootings over a period of time and there were those in the BP who wanted it stopped. One of them might have been Sanchez.
It would explain a lot. The reaction of the justice dept., the reaction of Mexican authorities.
We know that tension on the border had been building for years and earlier there had been fire fights across the border between the BP and groups of Mexicans.
IMO the US and Mexico got together and decided the only way to stop it was for both to aggressively investigate and prosecute ANY incidents on each side of border. That’s also a reason why Mexico was so adamant about this one, maybe they had been doing a lot of arresting and prosecuting and the US wasn’t holding up their end of the agreement.
So the Justice Dept and Sutton had to go after this one aggressively to show they were doing their part.
I think it’s funny how some here get their panties in a wad when they feel they’ve been insulted but don’t see the irony when they insult everyone from the President on down to BP agents.
That’s why I don’t take their righteous indignation very seriously. Their just a bunch of punks.
You will continue to support the ruling to withhold the second load evidence from the Ramos/Compean trial even after your "it didn't happen" argument falls apart. You will support the quashing of this evidence at trial by claiming that having it made public would jeopardize this claimed investigation into the cartel.
Sure you want to hear all about what I have witnessed so you can begin to pick it all apart & of course I wouldn’t have evidence so you would again attack me. I don’t think so. The proper officials and interested parties have already been informed about what I have witnessed.
I have personally witnessed numerous events as I said and I will leave it at that, either you believe me or not, I really don’t care either way. If you keep up with incidents that happen on the border you will see many examples of US authorities jumping through hoops reported in news articles. It happens fairly regularly and most of the time it doesn’t even make the news.
One incident that was highly publicized was when another BP (Nicholas Corbett) was charged in the shooting death of an illegal. In that case Mexican consulate officials were allowed to question witnesses to the shooting before US investigators were allowed to question them. To me that is a pretty blatant act of US jumping through hoops to please Mexican officials. I am sure you will see it otherwise.
US relations with Mexico is a funny thing- when US officials need cooperation of Mexican officials it is seldom given. When the shoe is on the other foot the US officials bend over backward to please Mexico. That is how it is on the border, that is how it has been in the past 36 years I have lived on the border. In the past several years I have been employed in a spot to see it happen first hand. Why does it work that way? I have NO idea- just one of the many mysteries of the border. Do I think it is a big “conspiracy” of some sort? It seems to be policy and I think it is just our government trying to be nice even when “nice” is not returned. I believe it is a bad policy, and that it needs to end. If Mexico wants cooperation, then they need to give cooperation, otherwise no cigar. Mexico should start by not encouraging their poor to illegally cross into the US. They might also want to help (actually help not just give lip service) curtail drug smuggling and many of the other illegal activities that take place on the border. Mexico is far from being a good neighbor to the US, and we should be acting accordingly.
So many people do not want to hear what is really happening on the border and will attack the messengers. I remember posting here a few years ago about an incident where Mexican military types crossed the border into the US, the disbelief and attacks by other posters was unreal. A few months after that incidents of that type began to be reported in the news and when it became public that such events occured numerous times the detractors were silent.
I don’t want to debate endless details of endless events on the border with you or anyone else. It is pointless and a waste of my time. I will not change my mind and I am quite sure you won’t change yours in any event. I want the US to fence the border and enforce ALL laws regarding ALL illegal activity on the border. I am working very hard towards that goal and hope I live to see the day when we have enough elected officials that agree with me to accomplish that goal.
I had a similiar experience with metal detectors. I threw a flake of hay over the fence to a horse and my wedding ring flew off my finger. I had a really good idea where it was and could not locate it. A man with a metal detector went over the area thoroughly several times and did not find it. This was not even in sand- it was in regular soil and the top few inches were powdery from the horse moving around on it. Finding small objects in any area is just not as easy as some believe, even using technology.
I never said it didn’t happen, I said there was no physical evidence for it, and so I saw no proof it happened.
‘No evidence” doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
I support that the judge who made the ruling knew what she was doing, and that if she was wrong the appeals court will correctly overturn the ruling.
I won’t mind if the appeals court rules it should have been submitted. I DO understand and agree that it was prejudicial to the prosecuter’s case, and not germaine to the question before the court. But that’s just my opinion based on the reading of the trial transcripts, it’s not a “fact” that can be known.
I am only adamant that we don’t claim opinion as fact, falsehoods as truth, smears as arguments, and the reporting of WND as gospel.
I have shown over the many months of this case how WND twisted the few facts they had to paint a false picture. We all are quick to recognize the tactic when done by our favorite whipping boys in the liberal media, and it pains me that we are blinded to the same tactic used for “our” cause.
Johnny Sutton should be arrested and thrown in Jail
he is a crooked DA.
just like Nifong
imho
There were more people involved than just the three principles. Two supervisors and several more BP were following the chase by radio and arrived on the scene right behind Ramos and Compean. They didn’t report any misconduct.
I believe there were three others at the van when the shots were fired, I'm sure there were at least two.
There was the young guy that first tried to pull over Davila, but Ramos got between them as he turned around so was directly behind Davila during the chase.
There was the officer who was paralleling them one road over in the chase that got on the scene right after the other two. Both admitted that they did not even attempt to help Ramos chase down Davila but went to look in the van instead.
The third showed up shortly after those two, but I believe he was there in time to hear the shots. I would have to check the transcripts to be sure. Others such as the older guy with the trainee in his car showed up shortly after the shots, but in time to see Davila get picked up by a car on the Mexican side.
Ramos' testimony was that when he crossed back over the drainage ditch he heard others talking about the shooting and that the supervisor was there, so he thought that his duty to orally report the shooting within one hour was fulfilled.
And since he didn’t shoot the gun, he’d have no reason to mention it. He’d assume the two who did the shooting would report it.
He didn't have an explicit duty to report it. However, they were at the Van when the supervisor showed up, and Ramos and Compean were on the other side of the ditch. Why was no one talking about the shooting? Neither Ramos nor Compean had crossed back over the ditch and explained the situation to them. They testified that they couldn't really see what happened. So why would they bee keeping the incident quiet. What reason would they have to not talk about it? The supervisor claims to have known nothing about the shooting and nothing about the high speed chase.
Yet the van had obviously slid to a stop partially into the ditch. There was radio chatter to some extent that he would have heard that would indicate they were covering a lot of ground quickly, though most of the chatter he would not have heard.
If he didn't know a lot more about what was going on that he admitted to knowing, he's horribly incompetent, or willfully ignorant to maintain some level of plausible deniability.
Compean can make the claim that he thought someone else told the supervisor, but collecting brass and tossing it in the water in the drainage ditch, as well as failing to mention the shooting in his written report overshadows something as simple as neglecting to orally notify his superior within an hour.
Compean does a lot of things that make him look like he is hiding something. But is that because he intentionally shot at an unarmed, fleeing suspect, or because after getting rushed, tossed to the ground, and losing control of his shotgun, he in hindsight thinks he overreacted in shooting at Davila and is questioning his own mind about whether there was a gun in the guys hand.
I've never been in that kind of situation, but I know people who have, and they tell me adrenalin can screw with your head pretty good. That still doesn't explain why he didn't write up the shooting in the report, unless it was because he was afraid that he would get in trouble to tossing the casings.
Beyond that, it seems all the BP agents were protecting one another. They simply didn’t report what they weren’t involved with. It would come clear quickly that R/C didn’t tell about the shooting, so there doesn’t have to be a conspiracy, simply the “thin blue line” which causes LEOs who work together to not rat each other out.
It's possible, but they talked to the supervisor before they talked to Ramos and Compean. There was obviously a lot of excitement about the drug seizure, so maybe they were concentrating on reporting about that. Maybe they didn't want to mention the shooting because they didn't want to get pulled into the paperwork morass of the investigation.
However, it is pretty rare for officers to discharge their guns. Why would they be predisposed to cover something like that up, even by omission, when they had no reason to expect is was anything but a justified shoot?
A lot of crap just doesn't add up regardless of which side you take on the issue.
Compean did a lot to hurt his own credibility, but Ramos didn't and if he were tried separately I doubt he would have been convicted simply because he never tampered with the scene and can justify his actions by simply following Compeans lead in firing at what his partner had already identified as a threat. His assertion that he thought there was an exchange of gunfire rather than just Compean shooting is awfully plausible, especially since he was down in the ditch when Compean started shooting.
We know that one guy picked up shells, so he must have known there was a shooting, and that guy threw the shells away, so he must have figured C/R were trying to cover up the shooting.
Even worse was that Compean told him he had fired his weapon and collected most of the casings, but that he had missed some, and asked the other agent to get them.
That does add some credibility to the thin blue line idea after the fact, but it still doesn't add up for me on the scene when the supervisor showed up.
It seems to me like the supervisor had to know, and the prosecution worked to hide that because evidence that ignoring regulations was systematic there, it really damages their case that Compean and Ramos failed to report it because they were covering up a crime.
From reading the transcripts, I was just amazed at how the prosecution appeared to be trying to spin things and hide things that didn't support their case. I was extremely skeptical that these two were being treated unfairly until I read the transcripts.
After reading the transcripts, I think that Ramos didn't do more than fail to report the incident, and that he was the one that acted the most honorably in the whole incident, including the other officers that were given immunity.
I think Compean received an unfair trial and deserves a new trial, though I admit that a fair trial could still very well lead to his conviction, though I think that with better counsel he had a good chance of being acquitted. I also think that the charges of using a firearm in the commission of a violent crime should never have been filed. It is insane to apply those charges when there is absolutely no indication that they intended to commit a crime. I however, also think there should not be such charges. Charge people and punish people based on the results of their actions. Why does it matter if they had a gun with them in a violent crime or not, if there is a difference between beating someone to death or shooting someone, I would think that beating someone to death is the worse of the two offenses, but shooting them would likely get them twice the time under this silly law.
I’m not a supporter of Mexico. I don’t support the R&C incident because I believe it was a bad shoot and no matter you’re position on the border, the law should com first.
If you don’t want to tell what you know, you’re call, but you won’t get any flack from me. Particularly if you are in a position to know, other than just living near the border with anecdotal stories.
“There were more people involved than just the three principles. Two supervisors and several more BP were following the chase by radio and arrived on the scene right behind Ramos and Compean. They didn’t report any misconduct.”
This is a good example of the misinformation and twisting of facts that go on. According to the trial testimony, besides R&C there were two other agents that were in the vicinity when the shots took place. The first had slid down the ditch and was pulling himself out when he heard, but didn’t see shots. The second hads just arrived and heard some shots as he opened his door. He also didn’t have a visual.
All the others arrived after the shooting. When questioned at the scene by supervisors, R&C stated nothing happened. I beleive they were questioned again later at the station and again they stated nothing happened.
What are the supers supposed to do, put them on the rack and beat it out of them?
Interesting post. I can’t remember if it was one or two by the van.
It did seem odd to me that one, or two, people would hear shots fired and not even go to the aid of their fellow agents. I would think that if shots were fired, every agent who heard the shots would pull their guns and run toward the scene, or at least radio to ask what’s up.
The decribed reaction makes it sound like guns are fired all the time and it’s no big deal.
Is it possible Compean was known for shooting his gun just to scare people, and that the other agents who heard it therefore ignored it, and that’s why they didn’t talk about it?
That’s really just idle speculation for me.
You can’t handle the truth.
“I wish people who just call other people traitors and crooks had to meet with those people and their families personally and explain to them why they felt justified in besmirching their character and trying to ruin their lives.”
I’ll be more than happy to meet any open borderer and call them treasonous.
If they are providing aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war then the title fits.
Remember the trial testimony about how the agents “push” the illegals back? The implication was they do it with their vehicles and their visual presence, but something tells me they would pop off a few rounds every now and then as well.
Compean didn’t hesitate picking up his spent rounds, nor did the other agent question when Compean asked him to get the ones he missed. He said okay, did it then called Compean to confirm.
Like they do it all the time.
Looks to me like you are already backing off your passionate argument that Davila was falsely accused of the second load.
‘No evidence” doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
The problem is that the government is hiding the physical evidence of the second load under the false premise that it is still investigating the matter two years after the incident.
I am only adamant that we don't claim opinion as fact, falsehoods as truth, smears as arguments, and the reporting of WND as gospel.
I went to PACER and read the very same documents first hand that Corsi includes in his articles yet you apparently want me to believe that these documents don't really exist.
Which specific detail on the subject of the second load are you claiming is a Corsi falsehood? I remember when you used to argue against WND's reporting on this because there wasn't a liberal news source to "second source" the matter for you.
I never claimed he was falsely accused of the 2nd load. I claimed that the only evidence was the word of the guy caught with the drugs. I claimed that the story of his brother was clearly false. I’ve claimed he was not arrested, that he was not indicted, that he was not “caught”, and that there was no evidence he drove a van of drugs over the border.
but I’ve NEVER claimed he was “falsely accused”.
I’ve been consistant here. My objection is people taking conjecture and presenting it as fact, and people jumping to conclusions or stating things as true when they are false.
I don’t even mind if people want to believe that Davila did a 2nd load. I only object to using that “belief” to then assert that Sutton is therefore lying about it, hiding it, or has some deal with Davilas to give him immunity for it.
Until you have some real proof that the story is true, it is just an opinion based on weak evidence. That doesn’t make it false, but fully explains why Davila isn’t sitting in jail right now.
Nah... but a Pinochio outfit could come in handy.
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