I have never doubted President Bush's decision to invade Iraq for a second.
To think what our world would be like now if we had NOT invaded Iraq and taken down Saddam....
Now THAT would be a mess.
Thank God for President Bush.
Agree that popular theories and analogies to Rome are almost always simplistic BUT
There are great lessons about history, war, leadership, morality, and human nature to be learned from Gibbons (The great historian, not the monkeys).
Cindy Sheehan: wakeup call. Cindy Sheehan ...
It is helpful to think about Iraq this way. Imagine if the US had never been there; and that this sectarian strife had broken out in any case – as, one day it surely would, given the hatreds engendered by a thousand years of Muslim history and the efforts of Saddam Hussein.
What would we in the West think about it? What would we think of as our responsibilities? There would be some who would want to wash their hands of it. There would be others who would think that UN resolutions and diplomatic initiatives would be enough to salve our consciences if not to stop the slaughter.
There are ALREADY those among us, who, either by virtue of utter cowardice, or outright self-loathing, or at best, well-intentioned naivete, would accommodate such horrors.
And we would know that, for all our high ideals and our soaring rhetoric, there would be only one country with the historical commitment to make massive sacrifices in the defence of the lives and liberty of others, the leadership to mobilise efforts to relieve the suffering and, above all, the economic and military wherewithal to make it happen.
And THAT is why America, naysayers notwithstanding, IS an empire after all.
for the sake of humanity, pray [America] lasts at least as long as Rome.
For the sake of HUMANITY, not for the sake of America.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
Sadly, there are no shortage of FReepers who understand history so poorly that they constantly analogize the US to Rome.
The United States kills off more than a million of its own children every year, while at the same time we allow a million foreign invaders to cross our borders every year.
I don't know if there's anything "Roman" or "declining" about that, but it sure as hell is symptomatic of a deranged social order. I suspect the modern age has brought about a social/political climate where the process of a collapsing empire will occur at a far more rapid pace today than it did 1500 years ago.
The analogy isn’t based on foreign military exploits, but on the fall of a decadent empire.
Thanks for posting this article. I’ve been having similar thoughts about the comparison between the US and Rome ever since teaching World History several years back.
For starters, if we ARE the modern Rome, this means 2,000 years of continued existence, if we start from Romulus and Remus and conclude with the fall of Constantinople. I think folks tend to forget that history teaches lessons through metaphor, not direct correspondence. We can view things like the Corn Laws and the chaos of the late Republic and draw lessons from them, certainly, but, strictly speaking, each moment in history is unique, in the same way the lives of individuals are unique. We can learn lessons, but our circumstances will not be the same as our ancestors.
My other observation is that there are people who are eager for the apocalypse, too. They love to think about the end of the world (I’ve listened to my fair share of “Coast to Coast”). The idea of America’s death fits a romantic ideal of someplace that was once great and is now lost, sort of like Atlantis. As far as I can see, these folks have been present in many cultures, not just American culture, and maybe they’re just a personality type which shows up in any group of people.
Well, we have Caligula reincarnated as a female presidential candidate. I think most people like to compare the US to Rome as far as “rotting” from the inside out.
ping
Rome didn’t fall. It moved. Also, it is still here.
“The tired analogy of imperial decline and fall”
Amen!
“The US is indeed in the middle of another gloomy ride around the
“America as Rome” theme park of half-understood history lessons. “
Too bad this recent book (see below) didn’t get some mention/discussion in the column.
As the answer to the question “Are We (USA) Rome?” seems to be “partially”.
The author of the book linked below did a nice presentation on his
book on BookTV (C-Span2; weekends) about a month ago).
Are We Rome?: The Fall of an Empire and the Fate of America
by Cullen Murphy
| The frequent comparison of the United States and Rome is quite unwarranted or undeserved flattery. Rome's actual control of much of the Mediterranean (Middle Earth) world for around 500 years (or more) beats out the United States' global 'hegemony' of some 50 years by a long shot. Rome forcibly and coercively held together many cultures while successfully assimilating many of those cultures to a more Roman one. From Spanish dinero to the Iraqi dinar, from Romania's Constanta to Algeria's Constantine, Roman influence permeates much of the world, West or otherwise, today (-ia is a Latin designation of land/country). The closest the United States has is the ascendancy of English to the main international language. But whether this would have been done without the British is debatable. Even if the United States provided the incentive for the uptake of English, the British Empire laid down the framework and infrastructure for it. Furthermore, English, along with most Western languages, is written using the Roman/Latin alphabet. Two thousand years from now--if the world lasts that long--will the the United States have nearly the lasting impact and influence on the world that Rome has had? Highly questionable. Besides, it is also debatable whether the United States even should try to make such an impression on world history. Being isolationist has its advantages, too. |
Decent piece, though.
People who use them, though, can always say that we won't know how much of a decline we're in until it's too late.
But the thing is that the analogies are used by people who think things are getting out of control.
Democrats pick them up now and we can scoff at them. If they were in office and we weren't it might be different.
Decades of the government getting more and more bloated, taxes going higher and higher, regulation on top of regulation, until one day it just all grinds to a halt.
Read the accounts of the parasites in the Bourbon courts and tell me they're any different from our legislators and bureaucrats of today.
One of the best arguments I’ve ever read on the Iraq war.
From the Times? Really? Is this a joke?
Remember Me -- An extrodinary tribute to our troops --
Defeat at Any Price (Why Petraeus's testimony was a nightmare for the Democrats)
From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.