A quick history lesson: America is no Rome - The tired analogy of imperial decline and fall

The Times (UK) ^ | September 14, 2007 | Gerard Baker

[what's up]

Imagine if the US had never been there

I have never doubted President Bush's decision to invade Iraq for a second.

To think what our world would be like now if we had NOT invaded Iraq and taken down Saddam....

Now THAT would be a mess.

Thank God for President Bush.

[Williams]

Of course the world didn't "go dark" for a millenium after Rome, whatever that means. Gibbons' history continues for about 1000 years after what we generally accept as the fall of Rome

Agree that popular theories and analogies to Rome are almost always simplistic BUT

There are great lessons about history, war, leadership, morality, and human nature to be learned from Gibbons (The great historian, not the monkeys).

[IronJack]

you shouldn’t really debase the motives of those who lead US forces there. Because in the end what they are doing is deeply honourable – fighting to destroy an enemy that delights in killing women and children; rebuilding a nation ruined by rapine and savagery; trying to bridge sectarian divides that have caused more misery in the world than the US could manage if it lasted a thousand years.

Cindy Sheehan: wakeup call. Cindy Sheehan ...

It is helpful to think about Iraq this way. Imagine if the US had never been there; and that this sectarian strife had broken out in any case – as, one day it surely would, given the hatreds engendered by a thousand years of Muslim history and the efforts of Saddam Hussein.

What would we in the West think about it? What would we think of as our responsibilities? There would be some who would want to wash their hands of it. There would be others who would think that UN resolutions and diplomatic initiatives would be enough to salve our consciences if not to stop the slaughter.

There are ALREADY those among us, who, either by virtue of utter cowardice, or outright self-loathing, or at best, well-intentioned naivete, would accommodate such horrors.

And we would know that, for all our high ideals and our soaring rhetoric, there would be only one country with the historical commitment to make massive sacrifices in the defence of the lives and liberty of others, the leadership to mobilise efforts to relieve the suffering and, above all, the economic and military wherewithal to make it happen.

And THAT is why America, naysayers notwithstanding, IS an empire after all.

for the sake of humanity, pray [America] lasts at least as long as Rome.

For the sake of HUMANITY, not for the sake of America.

[farlander]

Compared to the height of Roman civilization, the world did really ‘go dark’ for quite some time, as de-facto warlords ruled small patches of territorry constantly warring amongst each other. It was not until the reneissance that the light of civilization truly emerged agian.

[goldstategop]

The Romans conquered vast territories and settled colonists in some of them, Romanized others, exacted tribute from its subject peoples and ruthlessly crushed rebellions where they broke out. America is vastly different from Rome. It has not conquered land over seas, given back the Phillipines its independence, has never settled colonists anywhere, has never imposed the American way on any one else, has given the world money on a scale that would have appalled the Romans and its soldiers fight for freedom rather than the glory of Rome. The analogy is downright fallacious. America the hyper-power is nowhere the imperium Rome was in its heyday. Its the most benevolent country ever known in the history of mankind.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[wideawake]

The US is indeed in the middle of another gloomy ride around the “America as Rome” theme park of half-understood history lessons.

Sadly, there are no shortage of FReepers who understand history so poorly that they constantly analogize the US to Rome.

[wideawake]

Compared to the height of Roman civilization, the world did really ‘go dark’ for quite some time, as de-facto warlords ruled small patches of territorry constantly warring amongst each other. It was not until the reneissance that the light of civilization truly emerged agian.

This is simplistic.

There was a Carolingian Renaissance in the IXth century which united vast swaths of Europe under a single government.

Italy in the 1100s and 1200s enjoyed a standard of living far above that of the average Italian of the Roman period.

The "light of civilization" was doing quite well long before the Renaissance.

Surely you are familiar with Anselm? Or Dante? Or Cimabue? Or Giotto? Or Machaut?

Long before the Renaissance, medieval Europeans had created complex financial and legal systems, composed breathtaking polyphonic music and engaged in philosophical speculation far above the accomplishments of the late Roman period.

[L98Fiero]

To generally analogize the two is far too simplistic. That is not to say there aren’t things to be learned from the fall of the worlds first real attempt at some form of democracy on a large scale.

There are plenty of analogies between Rome and the United States. They are just not the ones people usually try to make, basically what goldstategop points out. The similarities between the two are far to granular to simply say “The US is like Rome” without getting pretty specific and excluding the whole “empire” notion. That was the rise of Rome. I would submit that what similarities there are would mostly be found in the fall of Rome and deal mostly with it’s society than its government or military.

[VR-21]

"There are great lessons about history, war, leadership, morality, and human nature to be learned from Gibbons (The great historian, not the monkeys)."

Tell that to our Congressional Democrats.

[wideawake]

I would submit that what similarities there are would mostly be found in the fall of Rome and deal mostly with it’s society than its government or military.

Most analogizers on this front love to equate Rome's political authority over foreign nations as somehow equivalent to America's alliances with foreign nations - which makes no sense.

Most analogizers on this front also like to equate Rome's exaction of tribute from subject peoples to the free commerce we enjoy with other sovereign nations - also preposterous.

One can point to the decline of Rome's moral fiber in its decadence and the moral issues the US deals with in our prosperity, but this is endemic to human nature.

[buwaya]

A lot of the civilized world did, however, go quite dark -

I found this fascinating -

http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civilization/dp/0192807285

[buwaya]

“The “light of civilization” was doing quite well long before the Renaissance.”

Certainly. A millenium is stretching things, 500-700 years is more probably correct as a period of recovery to conditions more or less matching those of late antiquity. But it is certainly true that in terms of population, economy and general culture the decline was profound.

I found this very interesting -
http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civilization/dp/0192807285

[agere_contra]

Long before the Renaissance, medieval Europeans had created complex financial and legal systems, composed breathtaking polyphonic music and engaged in philosophical speculation far above the accomplishments of the late Roman period.

Not to mention those masterpieces of Gothic architecture, bestriding the landscape of the Middle ages like armies armed with a thousand spears, the Cathedrals.

The climate collapse from 1350 until the 1600's, not to mention the Black Death - now there was something like a dark age, a double whammy that few civilisations could have survived. Civilisation did seem to go a little dim right about then. But no civilisation until the Renaissance? Hardly.

[Alberta's Child]

Interesting article.

The United States kills off more than a million of its own children every year, while at the same time we allow a million foreign invaders to cross our borders every year.

I don't know if there's anything "Roman" or "declining" about that, but it sure as hell is symptomatic of a deranged social order. I suspect the modern age has brought about a social/political climate where the process of a collapsing empire will occur at a far more rapid pace today than it did 1500 years ago.

[uncbob]

has never settled colonists anywhere, has never imposed the American way on any one else, has given the world money on a scale that would have appalled the Romans and its soldiers fight for freedom rather than the glory of Rome. The analogy is downright fallacious. America the hyper-power is nowhere the imperium Rome was in its heyday. Its the most benevolent country ever known in the history of mankind.

True but where we did nation build it was a success JAPAN

[Borges]

The Medievalist Proffesor at my school would explode into a rage whenever the term Dark Ages was used. He reffered to the term as 'Renaissance Propaganda'. Alcuin being his standard bearer.

[uncbob]

Too bad that dumb ass Buchanan and his ilk and their constant blather about American Empire don’t realize that

[Aquinasfan]

The analogy isn’t based on foreign military exploits, but on the fall of a decadent empire.

[uncbob]

Well there sure wasn’t a lot of progress technically medically infrastructure wise given it was almost 800 years