RUDY WINNING OVER 'RIGHT' PEOPLE

NY Post ^ | September 3, 2007 | CARL CAMPANILE

[presidio9]

Rudy Giuliani - the thrice-married presidential candidate who staunchly supported abortion rights, gun control and gay rights as the Big Apple's mayor - is receiving a surprising level of support from social and religious conservatives.

A recent Diageo/Hotline poll shows Giuliani leading the GOP field among Christian evangelicals and abortion opponents. He beats his nearest rival, ex-Sen. Fred Thompson,

[HamiltonJay]

80% of the republican platform? Please, thats nonsense to make such a claim.

While some social conservatives hate Rudy, and certainly he’s not the most social conservative guy out there, to claim he disagrees with 80% of the platform is nonsense.

Might want to go read the entire Republican Platform as adopted in 2004 before you make such ludicrous claims:
http://www.gop.com/media/2004platform.pdf

Well over 1/3 of the document is dedicated to winning the war on Terror, so even if Rudy scored a ZERO on the rest (which he doesn’t), he’d be at 66% disagreement, another 1/3 of the document he’s hardly in disagreement across the board... so you are down to even if zero on everything else would be 33% disagreement, which he’s not.

Based on the adopted platform, there is maybe 10%-20% where you can claim Rudy doesn’t support the republican platform, which would be more spin than reality, and would be primarily on social issues, not core party principles.

The nonsensical claim that Rudy isn’t a republican is just inanity, hard social conservatives are in the primary, and they are not getting above a few percentage points in the polls.... So, those who are completely motivated by them need to organize better, or pick better people to run. Not make outlandish and completely false and ignorant claims about those who are running and winning.

[HamiltonJay]

Well, personally I’m not so consigned to the inevitability of a Hitlery presidency.... she’s playing this “women” vote angle, and alienating traditional democratic constituencies in the process.

The press is playing up the GOP in disarray, but I really see it the other way.

Hitlery just turned her back on the Steel Workers Union, the Police and Fireman’s Union can’t openly support her because their memberships despise her...

She’s playing the Woman vote trumps all.. and I just don’t see it.

Most women I know will NEVER vote for her, even life long Democrats... they just see her as letting herself being stepped and humiliated in order to get some power... and no woman with a daughter can pull the lever for her and look their child in the eye again... How can they tell their daughters respect yourself, and then justify supporting this con artist?

Hitlery just dregs up all the corruption and scandals and everything else of the bubba era... hell she hasn’t even locked up the nomination and we are already finding foreign governments laundering money to her campaign.... The american people by and large have no desire for that again.

I think Hitlery is a guaranteed loss for D personally... The american public gave her hubby the benefit of the doubt and got burned royally for it... She’s going to have an even tougher time trying to convince them to give it to her after all her public actions and the fact she’s not nearly as charismatic as her husband.

Hitlery just has no credibility, she says she’ll control this or control that, or clean up DC, or whatever... She couldn’t even control her husband, and everyone knows it, so for her to make such claims just comes across laughably.

Like I said, its a long time until Nov 2008, so who knows... but I just don’t see the inevitability of the hitlery presidency... after all... the last 20 years we’ve had Bush or Clinton.... most people are ready for something different... and Hitlery sure ain’t it.

[Nonstatist]

While Mayor, Rudy cut corners on economic as well as social issues. However, it would be a hard sell to suggest that any Democrat could have cracked down on petty crime as well as felony crime , like Guliani did. Plus, most of his policies were very favorable with the middle class NYers (ie Staten Islanders) in implementation as well as rhetoric (all Koch was good for).

My biggest worry is that he'll lose a big chunk of the 2nd Amendment crowd and the pro-lifers and Federalists, before the election. In that case, if he wins anyway, he won't give 2 craps about the base and we're back in McCain-like situation where the President doesent feel he has to even pretend to be a Republican any more. I dont think a "conservative" party can survive that (not should it).

[dforest]

Maybe it's because there are new polls out every few weeks that are saying the exact same thing!

I don't put much credence in polls this far out.

Doesn't matter anyway, I won't vote for a gun grabbing, pro abortion, pro gay, opportunistic, globalist liberal, who has discarded 2 wives and his family.

Not my idea of a conservative. People like him are the reason the GOP will lose, RINOs are the downfall.

[calcowgirl]

Giuliani/Clinton/Dem vs. GOP Platform Comparison
Issue	Giuliani	Clinton	Dem Platform	GOP Platform
Abortion on Demand	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Partial Birth Abortion	Supports Opposed NY ban	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Overturning Roe v. Wade	Opposes	Opposes	Opposes	Supports
Taxpayer Funded Abortions	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Embryonic Stem Cell Research	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Federal Marriage Amendment	Opposes	Opposes	Opposes Defined at state level	Supports
Gay Domestic Partnership/ Civil Unions	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Openly Gay Military	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Defense of Marriage Act	Opposes	Opposes	Opposes	Supports
Amnesty for Illegal Aliens	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Special Path to Citizenship for Illegal Aliens	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Tough Penalties for Employers of Illegal Aliens	Opposes	Opposes	Opposes	Supports
Sanctuary Cities/ Ignoring Immigration Law	Supports	Supports	Supports	Opposes
Protecting 2nd Amendment	Opposes	Opposes	Opposes Supports bans	Supports
Confiscating Guns	Supports Confiscated as mayor. Even bragged.	Supports	Supports Supports bans	Opposes
'Assault' Weapons Ban	Supports	Supports	Supports
Frivolous Lawsuits Against Gun Makers	Supports Filed One Himself	Supports		Opposes
Gun Registration/Licenses	Supports	Supports		Opposes
War in Afghanistan	Supports	Supports Voted for it	Supports	Supports
War in Iraq	Supports	Varies Voted for it	Supports Weak support	Supports
Patriot Act	Supports	Supports Voted for it 2001 & 2006	Opposes	Supports

[SierraWasp]

"titular head"

Sounds about right to me!!! (infact, you coulda left the "ular" part completely off!!!)

[SierraWasp]

"(the list is much longer)."

And everybody KNOWS IT!!! (If they don't by now, they better finally wise-up!!!)

[TommyDale]

B.S. Alert!

[calcowgirl]

While some social conservatives hate Rudy, and certainly he’s not the most social conservative guy out there...

Well, I don't consider myself a "social conservative" and my opposition to Rudy is more on fiscal issues and his LIBERAL record, than anything else.

You folks who want to paint everyone that is offended by his assault on gun rights, his appointment of liberal judges, his autocratic leadership style, etc. as "Hard Right" are losing that propaganda war. The more people look, the more they find reasons to reject this Trojan Horse.

The same arguments were made to sell Schwarzenegger. Thanks a lot for that. You folks should be proud. (NOT!)

[Mariner]

"less than one third of his partys voters"

Does that apply to ALL the GOP candidates?

[finnman69]

It’s looking more and more like a Rudy vs Hillary matchup.

Thompson diddled while Romney moved up. Let’s be real, this will be decided and over by mid February. In reality it’s prlocked up already.

[HamiltonJay]

I don’t share your fears, the national politic is too divided. Remember, the exectuive branch is limited to truly accomplish change the legislature and the Exective must work together.

Bubba learned the hard way he couldn’t push his crap through without congress, and Dems have learned they can’t push their crap through without Bush. Its a rather ingenious system... the wild card has been the courts, and thats only because the legislature has taken a pass on its oversight of the courts. They can declare anything off limits to court pervue, if they choose to, but they don’t, which is why these activists just make up laws from the bench.

Rudy if elected cannot accomplish much without congress, and he surely won’t have many friends on the D side of the isle, he has to be able to work with an respect the R’s in congress to achieve any goals he wants. Dems won’t back down from their surrender politics and frankly we’ll likely be at war with IRAN by then.

I think a lot of fears are overstated, intentionally and just out of sheer ignorance.

You are correct that the 2nd ammendment crowd may snub Rudy, the pro life crowd, I don’t think as much. This movement has become far more pragmatic over the last decade... they have come to realize all or nothing does nothing to save childrens lives.. we didn’t get to this spot without incrementalism and we won’t roll it back without ie either. Sure some still cling to all or nothing mentality, but most of the truly active folks on this issue have become far more mature in their approach. When you can’t get what you want sitting at home leaves you nothing.... picking who is best of whats available at least gives you a seat at the table and a chance to at least advance your goals... sitting on the sidelines does nothing.

[HamiltonJay]

hahahaha.. way to take entire planks of the platform and ignore them. Again READ THE PLATFORM.

WAR IN IRAQ is not simply one plank, WAR in AFGHANISTAN is not one plank.. its over a 1/3 of the document alone. “social” issues make up about 20% or the parties platforms, but that’s what you want to list as him not being in lock step.

I’ve sent you the full party platform, go read it and see, htere is a hell of a lot more in it than just social issues, and most of the planks you decide to list as 1 item in your spin have dozens of points in the platform.

[Nonstatist]

Sure some still cling to all or nothing mentality, but most of the truly active folks on this issue have become far more mature

But chucking Roe v Wade is incremental, since it goes back to the States and many States will leave things as is. And remember, it only takes one more Roberts type judge to get it overturned. Guliani will be more than likely to put someone in there who will respect precedence in this case, leaving abortion as a federal issue and securing the status quo , with things going back and forth on the edges as the judges will.

So, anyway, that leaves out the gunners and prolife crowd, , and who's left in the grass roots with any energy? What kind of judges does Guliani pick? Who knows? .. Do you see what I'm getting at ? If he's not a conservative advocate, what's the point?

[HamiltonJay]

Please, if there is anyone here spewing propoganda, its you and yours. I like to the full 2004 GOP Platform in its entirety, and you respond with a PR spun “table” that suggests Rudy is the same as Hillary. That’s absolute bunk to anyone with a brain.

You don’t have to like Rudy, but to ignore whole sections of the GOP platform, and to pick and choose your interpretation of points to suggest Rudy is the same as Hillary is nonsensical.

I know social conservatives have a hard time dealing with certain realities... but the social issues are only about 15% of the GOP platform, and to claim Rudy doesn’t match up with any of them is also completely nonsensical.

I have no problem with people who don’t like Rudy, I have a huge problem with lies and bogus nonsense like you’ve regurgitated here. Rudy agrees with far more than 20% of the GOP platform as you have suggested in fact he matches up with the platform over 80% of the time. I’ve posted a link to the ENTIRE GOP platform of 2004, in its entirety, without redaction, as published by the GOP itself ... you have posted a nonsensical table showing what you want it to show, not what is.

I challenge ANYONE to read the GOP platform, and remotely make the claim you have hear that he’s only in step with 20% of its goals... your little table trying to imply Rudy is Hillary is just abject nonsense... only a completely ignorant or completely foolish person can look at these 2 people and claim they are the same. If there is propoganda being pushed in this thread, your “table” is a prime example of it.

Here’s the truth, and I know its not a truth to your liking, but its the truth. The hard right social conservatives are not unrepresented in this primary, but the candidates claiming to represent them are basically going nowhere. Its not because Rudy’s out there bashing them, its because they are weak candidates, poorly organized, and are pretty much being rejected by the bulk of the Party, for whatever reason.

So what can these hard right folks do? Well sane ones would find better candidates, or articulate your arguments better, or work to build up coalitions within the party to make your issues higher priorities for the rank and file. Alas, this is not what’s happening, they are just blaming everyone but themselves, and lying about anyone else out of spite.

The way things currently stand, your chosen candidates aren’t fairing well at all... which means your cause, or your method, or you candidate, or all 3 are not connecting with the GOP rank and file. You can blame everyone else all you want, but that’s the truth. The way it looks right now, not one of the more hard core social conservative candidates looks like they have a prayer of getting the nomination.... most look like they won’t even get more than a few points in the primary voting. So this leaves you with a decision... sit on the sidelines in the General, and contribute possibly to the advancement of ideas completely opposite to yours, or settle for at least some influence in the coming 4 years within the party and within the government. The choice is yours... but like the Sunni’s learned in IRAQ when you disengage out of spite, you get left out of the discussion.

Don’t have to like it, but that’s how this system works. Choice is yours. Now as I said, lot of time between now and Nov 08, but as it shapes up right now, there isn’t an R candidate out there that doesn’t look like milk toast beside Rudy.. and yes, that includes the projections place on Thompson, who couldn’t even handle one question about whether or not he advocated for abortion groups. He’s been given kid gloves since he started his flirting with running, and hasn’t been able to accomplish much of anything.

Time will tell, but at this point, it appears like the nomination is Rudy’s to lose.

[HamiltonJay]

I see what you are trying to say, but I guess I just don’t agree with you. Rudy did a pretty good job given the world he had to work in (which was the liberal bastion of NYC). He got probably some of the most conservative people that could have gotten appointed in that world in place.

You may be right, Rudy may appoint a judge who lets precident stand, (I personally doubt it because politically its a battle worth fighting with big payoff for him), but everyone knows Hitlery damned sure WILL appoint a judge who will let precident stand. Everything must be taken within context.

I don’t agree with your claiming hes not a conservative advocate.... I will agree he’s not a populist, and he’s not a fire and brimstone guy like a Jesse Helms... but he couldn’t be. If he was he’d be a Cabbie in NYC, and never had a chance at being Mayor. NYC would never put someone like that in the role.

I look at Rudy simply as this, he is a NY Conservative, pure and simple. He’s about as conservative as he could be in that town and have gotten elected. You can’t claim his policies are not based on conservative principles, he cleaned up the city, took on crime, took on the teachers union, reduced the welfare roles... taught the nation the broken window theory... etc etc etc. These are not actions of a liberal ideologue. On the social issues is he more liberal that most of red america? Absolutely, and given his background how could anyone expect otherwise?

In a city like NY you are going to deal with issues far differently than you would in a small southern or midwestern town. In some small town in IA the gay population surely isn’t going to have much political clout, all 10 of em... you don’t have big liberal, national and worldwide media at your throat for everything you do or say... you don’t have every liberal undground group represented and taking shots every chance they can find regardless of what you are doing...etc etc.

I just don’t see Rudy as some liberal, his actions by and large and his ideological motivations for them are not those of a liberal. I think those who don’t like him, are going to try very hard to paint him as one, and thus far have been very unsuccessful at doing so. They just go too far to try to make that spin.... Calling Rudy a Hillary is just so beyond the pale that no one is going to be swayed by that argument, its just flat out nonsense... but that’s what they have been doing and continue to try to do, and it really isn’t working.... but they keep trying.

I for one look at these candidates, and Rudy’s the only one who isn’t pandering 100% of the time... Rudy not only has stands that don’t jive with the party 100%, but he’ll defend them in front of a crowd that would rather he just agree with them day in and day out. That’s something the other guys don’t do at all... not any of the Dems, other than that antiwar R guy and McCain, not any other R... Romney changes with the wind, Thompson only plays to favorable crowds, and can spew rhetoric like the best of them, but offers little credibility to them when pressed.... McCain has taken and defended non popular stands, but unfortunately at this point he’s just alienated too many people.... If there were to be some sort of change in the status quo before 11/08, this would be the dark horse to watch IMHO.

There is still over a year until the general election and as we all know in politics anything is possible... however right now, I just don’t see anyone else remotely in the same ball park as Rudy, in terms of winning the nomiation.

[Spiff]

I look at Rudy simply as this, he is a NY Conservative, pure and simple.

Which, by any other definition, is a liberal. Let him run for Republican office in New York where his liberal, pro-abortionist, pro-gay, pro-illegal alien views are more acceptable.

[HamiltonJay]

No its not, again, if you think Cleaning up NY, taking on the Unions, reducing welfare and things like “The broken Window” theory are “liberal”.. you don’t have a clue what liberalism is.

Liberalism is what lead the city into bankruptcy and a crime den that Rudy and his administration cleaned up... Anyone who walked through times square before and after Rudy’s policies can tell you damned straight that there was nothing liberal about them.

[Reagan Man]

>>>>>I have no problem with people who don’t like Rudy, I have a huge problem with lies and bogus nonsense like you’ve regurgitated here.

Here's some truth. Rudy Giuliani is a gun grabbing, big govt liberal, gay activist, scumbag abortionist! And he will not be the GOP nominee.

[dforest]

I thought it was clear last spring here on FR that Rooty is not acceptable to conservatives. He is probably acceptable to social liberals, but they don’t need him. They have Obama, and the newly religious Hillary. He is a New Yawk lib. He cannot win and will not win.

I no longer owe the GOP my vote, particularly if they want to run a liberal. Most really do not care about hearing that spew about how the party just doesn’t care about conservatives, so we can just stuff it. Old hat, you know?