Posted on 08/25/2007 5:36:51 PM PDT by freedom44
Fire, the source of heat and light is not only revered in ancient Indo-Iranian rituals but also in modern day Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.
Zoroastrianism, which dominated the Sassanid Empire, is the religion ascribed to the ancient Persian prophet, Zarathushtra (Zoroaster), who lived 3500 years ago.
Fire (Atar), together with clean water (Aban), are considered agents of ritual purity in the Zoroastrian religion.
Despite the Zoroastrian respect for any form of fire, they do not worship it, rather it is used as a medium to communicate with God, whom they call Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom, the source of order and precision in the universe.
Standing before a sacred fire, Zoroastrians pay homage to a creation that represents life and the power of Ahura Mazda.
There are three kinds of sacred fires in Zoroastrianism, each standing for one sector of ancient society: Atash Dadgah, Adur Aduran, and Atash Behram.
Atash Dadgah is associated with the householder class and burns in houses and during celebrations such as weddings.
Adur Aduran is connected with the warrior class and burns constantly in fire temples. It is called the 'Fire of Fires' because it is made up of embers gathered from different fires belonging to different social classes, to symbolize social unity.
The highly revered Atash Behram is related to kings and the royal family. It must initially originate from lightning and is composed of embers gathered from the hearth of a thousand and one different occupations in society.
Atash Behram in Iran's Yazd. Atash Behran is called the 'Fire of Victory' and is kept in an undecorated temple, visible only to the worshippers.
Although there have been numerous fire temples in Iran, three are believed to have existed since the beginning of creation: Adur Burzen-Mihr, Adur Farnbag, and Adur Gushnasp, known as the 'Royal Fires'.
The 'Royal Fires' were also associated with social classes: Adur Farnbag with the highest class of priesthood, Adur Gushnasp with the warrior class, and Adur Burzen-Mihr with the lowest class of herdsmen and farmers.
In the olden days, fire temples were not only places of worship but also courts, treatment and learning centers.
If you believe in the story of Abraham, you will understand clearly that monotheism was practiced in his day. Different perspective? Obviously, on many things. Just as we have a different perspective than Abraham. However, we are monotheistic as was Abraham, and as were all God's true followers. Because Abraham and even, for example, Abel believed in the true God well before the time of Zoroastrianism, they cannot have been influenced by it.
My point was that truths such as those of monotheism were transmitted via oral tradition, well before the advent of writing.
~grin~ Man, I do not care. Join the club.
Besides, dont tell me what you [Vainly] THINK, tell me what you KNOW.
"You are simply intellectually dishonest if you choose to ignore the many references in the Old Testament to pagan, polytheistic practices among the Hebrews."
Ignoring them and giving them the significance that you do are two very different things. Reset and try again.
"It appears pretty obvious to me that there was a pattern of discord between elements in early Hebraic society which were polytheistic and some which were monotheistic."
Good for you. Of course there is a pattern of disobedience. It is a pattern that flows through all of mankind and is definitely not confined to early Hebrews.
Regardless, what you is of little import. Today there are millions of Americans who claim different faiths and yet they intentionally choose to transgress them. None of that is a reflection on the validity of those faiths. Instead their actions are reflections on them. You're making more out of disobedience than you are allowed to...drawing conclusions...
[that because some chose to associate themselves with local religious customs & dogmas of polytheism (none of which you can accurately date), that this somehow implies that polytheism predates the acknowledgement and worship of one true God]
....that is not supportable by simply [and shallowly] citing examples of Hebrew rebellion against God's commands.
The references you cling to reflect disobedience to the truth....not a reflection of it.
As an aside, I find it laughable that you would choose to site versus from a book [the Bible] and then incompetently attempt to use them to actually discredit the book. LOL!
Anyway...
"And the monotheism of the early Israelites...ALL point to the fact that there something not quite right with presumed pure and unanimous monotheism among the early Hebrews."
I have never claimed any such thing. I have simply defended the Judaic and Christian theos and the fact that the Worship of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob predates Zoroastrinism. Quite skillfully I might add.
Now if you would like to try and muddy the waters by branching out into other false faiths...feel free. I'll slap you around for that too.
"And what does the “Reverend” Jessie Jackson have to do with this? An assumption on your part that I’m black? Well I’m not. I’m a lilly-white Caucasian."
???
What?! LOL!! I have no ideas what you're talking about. But like everything else you've posted...it apparently comes from a personal perspective as opposed to first comprehending reality.
"I suggest you..."
Haha...I have little time or interest in your lame adolescent, self-serving suggestions.
Just say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
~grin~
The historical Zoroaster overall is not disputed (there are a few who think that he did not exist); but when he lived is. The Avesta language used in the Gathas (which he is purported to have written or sung), is considered an archaic Persian language probably dating to about 1000 BC as you state. That is not the same as saying when he created these poems / scriptures (they could be even earlier).
Moses probably lived around 1400 BC, not 1000 BC which dates to the kingdom of Saul and David. While the Old Testament scriptures as we have them, probably went through an editorial process during or after the Babylonian exile, there are quite a few examples of verses or people named from the Bible before the exile (usually on pot shards).
Although the Old Testament is full of references to paganism (idolatry), it is always condemned. Clearly the scriptures talk about only a remnant being faithful to the one God Yahweh. Elohim is really a title for God which meant lord in old Northwest semitic languages. Elohim essentially means Lords(which Christians point to for proof of the trinity). Yahweh has lots of titles such as provider, protector, Lord, etc... Lots of people have confused the titles with His name and therefore think there are multiple gods or syncretistic with other religions or peoples. I am not saying you are saying that (and sorry if I am saying stuff you already know).
According to most secular Biblical scholars, there are at least 4 or 5 different sources for the Old Testament that were edited after or during the exile, one is called E for Elohim and another is J for Jehovah or Yahweh. The same techniques for document deconstruction are actually used on the Zoroastrian scriptures as well and lead to a terminus date of about 1000 BC date for the original composition of the Gathas. Since the earliest extant scriptures for the Zoroastrian religion are during classical times (that I know of), I would say everybody should be cautious on stating definitive dates for his life. Clearly the name for the God Yahweh is older man called Zoroaster. The name was attested to in Urgarit from about 1400 BC and other places in Syria.
Sorry about the book :)
Most Christians would be terrified of the truth taught in Seminary, to say nothing of the loose ends that are indeed getting continually mixed up in new discoveries.
That does not take away from my faith, my belief in the Bible or my trust in God. It also does not give another the right to call me stupid because I explore what they cannot prove - or disprove.
A very wise man said not to argue with anyone wiser you or someone less intelligent than you.
I’ll leave it to you to determine in what category I place you.
If you want to believe the entire Bible is to be taken literally verbatim with no recourse to common sense, reading between the lines, or recognizing allegorical and symbolical references in the same, and choose to ignore what Biblical scholars have interpreted from studying it based on their knowledge of the Bible, ancient Hebrew, and the cultural and historical millieu around it, be my guest.
A closed mind is a dangerous thing.
Indeed. Especially toward lightweights like you and your lazy mental meanderings.
So to sum up...basically you can no longer defend your intellectually dishonest position and you have no other simplistic adolescent angles that you feel comfortable employing at this time.
Cool. ;o)
~chuckle~
I refuse to descend to your level.
Your arguments are based on your personal view of faith, and not grounded in logic or facts.
|
|
|||
Gods |
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution. |
||
|
· Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · · The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists · |
|||
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.