Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'

The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

[1066AD]

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.

[spanalot]

There are no trees obstructing Oswald sight as Kennedy comes closer.
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n2/zfilm/zframe133.html

[JoeA]

I understand that Oswald passed his marksmen test, on the last try, but failed several other times.

Have you been to the depository? The shot was not easy: A target moving away from you, at an angle, down a hill, and through a tree.

Six Reasons Why Oswald Did Not Shoot JFK

1. No credible witnesses place him on the sixth floor
2. He was found in the second floor lunch room by a policeman approximately 90 seconds after the shooting, drinking a soda, and did not appear to be out of breath or under stress
3. The gun was not in his name, nor was his ownership of it established
4. The majority of bystanders who reacted to the shots went to the grassy knoll
5. JFK and Connally appear to be hit by two separate shots, at an interval too close to have come from the same gun
6. The fatal shot comes from the front and to the right, splattering the back of the car and the motorcycle policemen to the left rear with blood and brain matter.

I could go on and on

[Shooter 2.5]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm

Interesting read. He doesn’t remember the fence at all. He was there, though because the switchman spotted him and the wall runs right next to the fence. He also says the activity was at the depository.

[RGPII]

Perhaps Zapruder was near this monument. Perhaps Zapruder was near this monument.

I don’t care to treat minute details of this episode, if this gets better and better; good for you.

It’s the general picture I’m looking at.

[EdArt]

Thanks for your information.

I know Marina said he practised but the WC did not put much weight on her statements.

I do remember thinking the car would be traveling at an angle while was at the BD.

Was the car in a straight shooters line - if not, sighting takes more skill and time as bolt action rifle raises up after being fired.

I have not read all the posts- 400 for and against

Combat shooting is I am sure you know very different than target shooting- the pressure to kill a President should be added into the mix. It is not about guilt.

I have seen re-enactments but not mixing in all the elements.

Re Deer hunting- I have seen many hunters miss the deer due to being over excited or the slightist movement of the deer.
We hunted every season in Ohio- I lived on a farm.

Please send me a link that shows a true re-enactment of the shooting, I would like to see it.

Again thanks for the reply- regards Ed

[RGPII]

Details for sure I’m not sure of; and I didn’t think, Connally believed in a conspiracy but accepted what the Warren Commission said; still, this essay says all of these people believed (believe) there was a conspiracy;

---

“Believers in a JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Lyndon Baines Johnson, President of the United States
Richard M. Nixon, President of the United States
John B. Connally, Governor of Texas
J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI
Clyde Tolson, Associate Director of the FBI7
Cartha DeLoach, Assistant Director of the FBI
William Sullivan, FBI Domestic Intelligence Chief
John McCone, Director of the CIA
David Atlee Phillips, CIA disinformation specialist (Chief of Covert Actions, Mexico
City, 1963)
Stanley Watson, CIA, Chief of Station
The Kennedy family
Admiral (Dr.) George Burkley, White House physician
James J. Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service74
Robert Knudsen, White House photographer (who saw autopsy photos)
Jesse Curry, Chief of Police,75 Dallas Police Department
Roy Kellerman (heard JFK speak after supposed magic bullet)
William Greer (the driver of the Lincoln limousine)
Abraham Bolden, Secret Service, White House detail and Chicago office
John Norris, Secret Service (worked for LBJ; researched case for decades)
Evelyn Lincoln, JFK’s secretary
Abraham Zapruder, most famous home movie photographer in history
James Tague, struck by a bullet fragment in Dealey Plaza
Hugh Huggins, CIA operative, conducted private investigation for RFK
Sen. Richard Russell, member of the Warren Commission
John J. McCloy, member of the Warren Commission
Bertrand Russell, British mathematician and philosopher
Hugh Trevor-Roper, Regius Professor of Modern History at Oxford University
Michael Foot, British MP
Senator Richard Schweiker, assassinations subcommittee (Church Committee)
Tip O’Neill, Speaker of the House (he assumed JFK’s congressional seat)
Rep. Henry Gonzalez (introduced bill to establish HSCA)
Rep. Don Edwards, chaired HSCA hearings (former FBI agent)
Frank Ragano, attorney for Trafficante, Marcello, Hoffa
Marty Underwood, advance man for Dallas trip
Riders in follow-up car: JFK aides Kenny O’Donnell and Dave Powers
Sam Kinney, Secret Service driver of follow-up car
Paul Landis, passenger in Secret Service follow-up car
John Marshall, Secret Service
John Norris, Secret Service
H. L. Hunt, right-wing oil baron
John Curington, H.L. Hunt’s top aide
Bill Alexander, Assistant Dallas District Attorney
Robert Blakey, Chief Counsel for the HSCA
Robert Tanenbaum, Chief Counsel for the HSCA
Richard A. Sprague, Chief Counsel for the HSCA
Gary Cornwell, Deputy Chief Counsel for the HSCA
Parkland doctors: McClelland, Crenshaw, Stewart, Seldin, Goldstrich, Zedlitz,
Jones, Akin, et al.
Bethesda witnesses: virtually all of the paramedical personnel
All of the jurors in Garrison’s trial of Clay Shaw76
Bobby Hargis, Dealey Plaza motorcycle man
Mary Woodward, Dallas Morning News (and eyewitness in Dealey Plaza)
Maurice G. Marineau, Secret Service, Chicago office
Most of the American public
Most of the world’s Citizens”

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v5n1/v5n1mantik.pdf

Page 18 of the essay.

[Ditto]

My own classification of the O-rifle as a clunker was based on the sloppiness of the action as compared to most bolt-action rifles

Unless it jams, a 'sloppy bolt' does not take 3+ seconds to cycle, and thats all the time Oswald needed.

Plus, as other posters here have pointed out, there were multiple generations of that rifle and the one Oswald used was manufactured pre-WWII when quality control was much higher than later years during the war when pressures were causing sloppy workmanship.

At any rate, to dismiss the overwhelming body of evidence that Oswald was the sole actor based on a 'sloppy bolt' you felt on a 50 year old weapon that might have been machined in some garage is not a convincing argument to me. The rifle Oswald used was test fired and it worked perfectly and they were able to duplicate the shots he took.

Let me ask you this. If Oswald had paid a $1000 for some custom made target weapon, would you then believe that he did it?

We all hate to believe that a President can be killed by a nut case with some cheep-ass weapon, but even before Kennedy, there were three other presidents killed by nut cases with cheep ass weapons.

[RGPII]

“According to assassination researcher and author J.W. Hughes, who has tested this deformation over fifty times on each of his seven Mannlicher-Carcanos, “When deformed, it will not hold the rounds because the locking ridge is spread too wide to hold the round and the weapon jams.”13 The Warren Commission was apparently silent about whether expert riflemen from the U.S. Army and FBI had such difficulty firing the alleged murder weapon in 1964, and whether it was fired with its alleged clip. Whether or not those marksmen used the original clip, they were required to use any test clip in the original’s apparent “found” condition, i.e., deformed. Anyone could have tested the clip by duplicating its required abnormal behavior, and can still. But CBS News, which claimed to “duplicate the conditions of the actual assassination” in its filmed rifle test in 1967, did not. According to reporter Dan Rather, “Eleven volunteer marksmen took turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target.” They fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which resulted in unfired bullets due to “trouble with the rifle.” Clip problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots, however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film, clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald’s alleged feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing test:” - http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/gtds.html

---

We’ve got some gun experts here; I’m reading this article; I don’t quite get it but others might.

And maybe this has something to do with how this gun was tested at the Carcano factory in Italy.

[REDWOOD99]

Oswald wasn’t trying to beat the clock.

[Shooter 2.5]

JFK Reloaded or the live feed from the Sixth Floor Museum. Elm Street curves away from the window.

He only hit two out of three at 44 and 88 yards.

[RobbyS]

Then it must have been that he thought he would have only one shot. He would, after r all, be aiming not only at the presidential care but at the cars behind. One of the agents on Johnson’s car would have seen the flash. If he waited until the President’s car made the turn, then the agents would have been looking away from his building nook. But, really, we don’t know what Oswald saw. I forgot that I was looking at the scene more than 10 years later, when the trees had grown taller. But the main impression I got was how CLOSE he was to his victim. He could have hit a man’s body with a pistol.

[Shooter 2.5]

And for some silly reason, no one on YouTube seems to have trouble with their rifles.

I can guarantee you for all the posters who claim they can’t make that shot, they will be on the Bang List bragging about their shooting prowess on another thread.

[Ditto]

Well just the line "alleged murder weapon" strikes me funny. The round they found that hit Connley and the other they found in bits in the limo after it blew JFK head apart were definately from the same rifle found on the 6th floor of the book depository --- where every one agrees Oswald was.

There is nothing "alleged" about that rifle. It is the one that fired those shots.

It also matches the round found in General Walker's house when Oswald tried to kill him several months eariler.

The rest of this stuff is total BS designed to sell books, IMHO.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

From wikipedia: While in the Marines, Oswald was trained in the use of the M-1 rifle. Following that training, Oswald was tested in December of 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a sharpshooter. In May 1959, on another range, Oswald scored 191, which was 1 point over the minimum for ranking as a marksman.

BTW, everything in his bio indicates that he was a real malcontent loser. I believe that he acted by himself and don't think his feat was really that amazing.

[RGPII]

I think you are speaking the BS; they talk about cartridges and magazines that feed the bullets in.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

Only 40% cleared? You should check your facts. There is no way this is correct.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

I simply call them “dumb asses”. I don’t know if this is the correct clinical terminology, but it works fine for me.

[Ditto]

I think you are speaking the BS; they talk about cartridges and magazines that feed the bullets in.

Fine. The rounds have to pass through a barrel to get to a target, and the marking on those rounds show they passed through the barrel of the rifle found on the 6th floor.

I don't particularly understand the point on the magazine.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

The one statistic I long for on all of these polls is how much actualknowledge they have on the subject. I think it would be very telling.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

Why? What part of it could he have not done on his own?