Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'

The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

[1066AD]

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.

[RGPII]

Interestingly enough, a pro-one gun man website has a host of links that they still find useful and credible in the debate for both sides; and give the following link used:

As for Posner; this other site disputes some of his findings; http://www.assassinationweb.com/audio1.htm

“Nothing could be further from the truth! Not only did the JFK autopsy pathologists, Humes and Boswell NOT change their minds about the low position of the head wound (which makes the alleged shot from above and behind impossible, and therefore refutes the ridiculous lone-assassination theory that Lee Harvey Oswald alone murdered JFK) but Gerald Posner never even spoke to Boswell! How do we know this? J. Thornton Boswell himself, a man who participated in the autopsy of President Kennedy (and who believes Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone) tells us this in this conversation with Dr. Aguilar.

So, do we believe Posner or do we believe Boswell? The only reasonable conclusion we can draw is that Posner, in his determined effort to rehabilitate the long-discredited Warren Commission version of the assassination, will stop at nothing, including lying to the United States Congress, to “close” the case. “

[painter]

Then why would he have to eject the third shell if he did not need a fourth shot

Reflex.

[Pistolshot]

The Kennedy assassination began my life-long love affair with firearms. I too had reservations about Oswald. I learned to shoot all types of rifles, pistols, shotguns. I have owned a number of Carcanos, rifle and carbine, some of good quality, some poorer examples. All of them shot well with good accuracy. If fact, after a few hours of working the bolts in, the rifles were smooth functioning.
Marinia did testify that LHO practiced often working the bolt of the rifle. The accuracy with the scope, was further testified to by the attempt on Gen Edwin Walker, which was only deflected by the window frame. That shot would have hit Walker in the head from about 100 yards away.
LHO longest shot to Kennedy was approx 265 feet or about 90 yards. Both very capable for one with Oswalds skill as a rifleman.

[tpaine]

Warren Commission Report Chapter 3

Address:http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter3.html

Refered lines in Chapter 3, as per the reference numbers..

-264- Examination of the Zapruder motion picture camera by the FBI established that 18.8 pictures or frames were taken each second, and therefore, the timing of certain events could be calculated by allowing 1/18.8 seconds for the action depicted from one frame to the next.

-264- -266- Tests of the assassin’s rifle disclosed that at least 2.8 seconds were required between shots.

-266- -346- The possibility that the second shot missed is consistent with the elapsed time between the two shots that hit their mark. From the timing evidenced by the Zapruder films, there was an interval of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds between the shot which struck President Kennedy’s neck (between frames 210 to 225) and the shot which struck his head at frame 813.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lets see if the math works. — There are 602 frames between 210 & 813..

- Whoops, must be a mis-print , —

let’s try frame 313, which makes 103 frames...

— 103 frames divided by 18.8 frames per second, equals 5.48 seconds, — max time avail for two bolt cycles and 3 shots..

Thus, — if shot #1 hits JFK’s back at frame 210, then shot #2 misses, and shot #3 hits at frame 313 that equals 3 shots. — 2.8 seconds for each bolt cycle/aim/fire; for a total of 5.6 seconds..

-— So ~whoops~ again, line 266 must have another mis-print, and really meant it takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action, aim & fire.

—— Unless the 1st shot was taken, and missed, 43 frames [2.3 seconds] ~before~ frame 210, - at frame 173 -, when the limo was behind the tree.

— Or, the 3rd shot missed completely, 2.3 seconds ~after~ JFK’s head exploded.

It becomes apparent that shot #2 had to be the shot that ‘missed’ according to the Warren Reports own timeline, ~if~, big IF, the single bullet theory is to be considered convincing.

Which leaves the issue back in the laps of the re-creators of the actions taken.. Could LHO have aimed & fired 3 shots in 5.48 seconds?
Sounds like magic to me. Most real shooters over the years have agreed. The government/media re-enactments have been so staged as to be unconvincing.

[painter]

I grew up shooting and learned to reload a bolt action without ever losing my sight picture. Most people dismount the weapon

My dad taught me the same way. I once watched my dad "run" 4 rounds through a 30-40 Krag at a buck that was running flat out from our left to our right. Fourth shot? Right through the heart.

Time frame? Alot less than 8 seconds.

[painter]

I finally received my little warbaby M1 and it’s really a nice one.

I shot my friends M1 a couple weeks ago. MAN, Those are good shooting rifles! We were shooting Valvoline quart bottles at 150 yards.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Shooter, I believe there is a lingering mystery surrounding the JFK assassination. It is how, in the course of really just a few years, a simple homicide that was solved within a day or so, and understood by nearly all Americans, was twisted and misrepresented by a small group of writers and activists to the point today that a strong majority of people believe someone other than Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible.

Oswald was clearly on the scene that day, was identified as the man in the sixth floor window who fired the shots that the majority of witnesses at the time stated came from that direction, did no work that day when he was on the upper floors as shown by his unfilled order sheet, owned the rifle that was ballistically matched as the murder gun, fled the scene after the shooting, killed a policeman and later attempted to hide in a theater and resisted arrest when discovered. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth.

Films of JFK in the limo show his head moving forward before it moves back, and the spray of blood and brain tissue flying forward. Expert physicists and lab tests explain how an object can move toward the direction of a gunshot. Scientific analysis shows that the evidence taken from both JFK and Connally’s bodies tallies with and is consistent with the bullet that hit both men. The very fact that Connally’s wound was oblong shows the bullet had hit something else before striking him. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth.

There is NO evidence that anyone else was involved in the crime. No other fingerprints, no other gunshots. No minutes of secret meetings of Oswald and a coconspirator. No help in escaping from Dallas. Nothing. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth.

How is this possible? Why do most people accept the events of 9/11 as presented yet reject the Warren Report? Why do most people believe Bugliosi’s book that says OJ killed two people yet mock one that shows Oswald acted alone?

What makes the JFK killing so powerful, so mythical in scope and meaning, that people believe Mark Lane and David Lifton over their own lying eyes? This is the true mystery of the death of a President, and one that truly may never be solved.

[N. Theknow]

I saw a 70 year old man fire the same number of shots in that timeframe using the same rifle.

Ahem.

This was done by an Italian team.

Could your 70 year old man do it while running and firing back over his shoulder?

[Lx]

Do you check your closet at night for the ghost of J. Edgar?

I do, he was wearing a sequined dress the last time I saw him...

[Ditto]

During a recent worktrip to Dallas, I had a little time on my hands and walked to the scene of the crime. Went to the sixth floor and crouched at the window next to the Oswald window, which is now glassed in.

I'm not sniper material by a long shot, but I'm a pretty dang good shot through open sights. Crouching right there, the thought of making those shots with a pristine rifle, much less that clunker, looked WAY unlikely. WAY.

Funny. I looked through that same window as you did, and my impressions was just the opposite -- it looked pretty easy to me. The shot was much closer than I had the impression of from looking at photos of the area. Like you, I'm not an 'expert marksman' but even with my limited experience, I think I could hit 2 of 3 at a slow moving target from there.

And there was noting "clunker" about that rifle. It was and remains a fine, accurate weapon. The only reason it was so cheep then ($15 ?) is because there were tens of thousands of them on the surplus market.

[Pistolshot]

Sorry, we've been through this a few times before. Your assumption of the second shot missing is incorrect. Here's my analysis and what looks more to what the evidence suggests. Again, remember this is what I suggest. It is MY opinion, not based on the Warren commission or any of the numerous books on second shooters, AR-15's or anyone stuck in a drain. the Zapruder film is remarkable in the sense of a timeline and a fixed record of the event. Had shots come from the grassy Knoll as many have suggested, the reaction from Zapruder would have been to turn the camera in that direction to film or look. Niether of which happened. the event took place in front of him and his reactions to the gunshots is recorded on that film. His reactions, the camera jiggles, occur AFTER the shot since the sound will follow the impact.

Frame 202

A few frames before the first shot is fired. Notice the girl in the pink sweater at the top of the picture. Keep her in mind. Also notice the clarity of the picture, steady and fairly focused. Remember Zapruder has a fear of heights and is being supported by his secretary on the pedestal in the park area.

The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203

The picture is now a blur as Zapruder reacts to the shot and the camera jiggles. This shot ricochets of the curb sending shrapnel around, hitting James Tauge(sp) under the triple overpass and showering the back of Kennedy's head.

Frame 205. The follow up car and the girl in the sweater.

Back in focus. The girl in the pink sweater is reacting to a sound from behind her. The follow up car is also starting to react and notice the proximity to the limo itself. Kennedy is disappearing behind the sign.

Frame 225.

Out from behind the sign Kennedy is still reacting to the first shot. His mouth is open in surprise and Connally is begining his turn to the right to look behind him.

The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227

Again the camera jiggles from the reaction to the sound of the gunshot. Kennedy is begining to react, Connaly looks as if he has turned completely to his right in the space of milliseconds, indicating he is also hit.

Frame 229. Both men react to the shot.

Both men are now reacting . Kennedy, shot through the neck has suffered a possibly fatal wound. This bullet has entered his back just below the collar line and exited out his throat. It has also damaged his neck causing the reaction seen here. Both arms are locked in place in reaction to the damage at this point.

Frame 228 Both men react.

Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. Connaly sitting lower and inboard in the jumpseat in front of the president is in a direct line to the TSBD.

Frame 235 The reaction continues.

Connaly is now slumped fully to his right as the lung collapses. Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine. I will find the name if you'd like.

Frame 265 Connaly collapses, Kennedy is paralyzed.

This frame shows Connaly completely turned to his right and about to be pulled into his wife's arms. Kennedy has become paralyzed, fists clenched, arms upright and locked, and sitting upright due to the brace he wore for his back injury from WW2 and surgery to help alleviate the pain. This brace will hold him up to die.

Frame 311 Jackie leans in.

Jackie is leaning in trying to see what is wrong and pushing on Kennedy's arm to lower it. Connaly is in his wife Nellie's arms and out of the line of sight. Jackie is terribly close to the path of the last and final shot.

Frame 313 The Fatal Headshot.

John Patrick Kennedy receives the fatal wound.

Having visited Dealy Plaza on a number of occasions I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.

Frame 318 The head snap.

The reason Kennedy's head snaps back is the brace he is wearing. It was designed to keep his upper body rigid for extended periods such as a motorcade. When the fatal shot was fired all motor control ceased as his brain was pulverized and the motor areas disintegrated. Arms dropped and the body was snapped in place by the brace.

Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.

[Lx]

Maybe instead of everyone saying, 3 shots, first cartridge is loaded; the presumption is 3 shots after the initial one if there were possibly four shots.

That makes good sense, why eject the last round? Does anyone know if there was one left in the chamber?

[RGPII]

"There is NO evidence that anyone else was involved in the crime. No other fingerprints, no other gunshots. No minutes of secret meetings of Oswald and a coconspirator. No help in escaping from Dallas. Nothing. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth."

Nothing there, that's why 10,000 files and pieces of evidence are locked up until the year 2038 and some of it may be indeed related to National Security.

That said, I hope no one takes this to heart as offensive anything I might say. Like someone said earlier, all of the speculation and curiosity on the subject is riveting. Even, if I don't get wrapped up in it; the same sorts of questions with other events of the times exist and maybe they appear to be whacked out subjects, like UFOs and other things.

I've lived in Dallas a few years after this event. One shouldn't fault those who are curious just viewing all of this.

[Lx]

I gave my kid a lever action and it was so funny. Since he’s new school and I’m old school I had to remind him to chamber after every shot. He’s so used to semi’s. Kids these days. Since he came back from Iraq he hasn’t had the SAW. He’s back carrying an M-16.

Too funny! Didn't he ever see the TV show the Rifleman? Thank him for serving for me! It's kind of neat shooting a lever action.

[Lx]

I don’t know what Lawyer Garry Spence’s political beliefs are; but I remember when he was part of the trial of LHO on TV: a trial I believe he lost btw;

To the left of Che...

[painter]

If the conspiracy nuts are right and the last head shot Did come from the front wouldn’t Jacki been shot instead? According to your pictures her head would have been in the way.

[Proud2b4America]

Man, I’m impressed! Where did you get and who
do you have to know to obtain those remarkable
photographs?

[tpaine]

Why do most people accept the events of 9/11 as presented yet reject the Warren Report?

Because the Warren Report [as presented in 1964] was full of arguable assumptions [like the single bullet theory] made by the Warren Commission.

What makes the JFK killing so powerful, -- that people believe --- their own lying eyes?

The Zapruder film - and it's timeline, - make them believe their eyes, - and disbelieve the Commission's theories.

[bigjoesaddle]

LOL! EXCELLENT!

[RGPII]

FBI goes on after the House hearings of the '70s to say their conclusion of 4 shots is wrong; but reading up last night,

Dallas Police Tapes were found of the events of Nov. 22, '63; and they worked out the "dictabelt" Dictabelt article and found there were four shots and listening to the tapes, a lot would agree with that.

But now, it would be the same sort of deal to say, "no, still 3 shots" like looking at what the Zapruder films seems to say; and I do understand the argument of hitting a target and the way it might move. -----------

I'll still be a John Candy fan no matter what; he played Dean Andrews in that movie; curious;

Quotes from the movie (the real life guy was supposed to be something like this):

"Why you keep dancing on my head for, my man? We been thicker'n molasses pie since law school."

"They put the heat on, my man, just like you're doing. I gave'em anything that popped into my cabeza. Truth is, I never met the dude."

"Hey, pipe the bimbo in red. What ever happened to that little gal you was dating in the Quarter - from Opelousas, y'know, elevator didn't go to the top floor but t--s could smother gumbo with."

And more pertinent material from the movie at script