Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'

The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

[1066AD]

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.

[U S Army EOD]

A weaving car is much harder to hit, not to mention one under water.

[Shooter 2.5]

You can’t prove he didn’t.

Of course I can. It's just that you have the same mental problems as the people on DU saying "Bush did it". You have the same bias and same hatred to accuse someone with no facts. And when someone presents those facts to you, your mind doesn't accept it. A shrink could devote his entire career to someone like you. And that's a fact.

[DugwayDuke]

Granted that Oswald did not qualify as an expert. However, the History Channel showed the official records of two of his firings. At 200 yards, Oswald scored 48 out of 50 and 49 out of 50. The last and killing shot at Kennedy was at 88 yards. I don’t know whether Oswald qualified as Marksman or Sharpshooter but those scores would indicate that these shots were well within his demonstrated capability.

[ExSoldier]

I saw a 70 year old man fire the same number of shots in that timeframe using the same rifle.

But that is only half of the requirements. Did this 70 year old guy hit a moving target, one in the head while shooting thru a tree while the range was lengthening at an oblique angle?

If Oswald had fired the fatal shots from the position assigned to him in the depository, why did he not take the easy shot approaching him at a shortening range because there was also a window that covered that approach just a scant few feet from the alledged firing position. Oswald also failed to qualify EXPERT in the Marines. By all accounts he was a mediocre marine. Working the action is but a small part of making that shot. The 70 year old guy....did he shoot the actual assassination weapon? Of course not. There is no telling if the bolt on that rifle was smooth enough or the sights properly set for the range. Way too many variables to simply assert that your 70 year old guy duplicated the kill shots on JFK. Right?

[DugwayDuke]

No rifle is perfectly sighted. That’s why one always has to zero the weapon for himself. One’s man perfect zero may be a miss for some one else.

There’s a real inconsistency in claiming that Oswald was a poor shot and cricizing the rifle for a less than perfect zero. Poor shots usually result in less than perfect zeros. That doesn’t mean though that the poor shot person cannot hit the target with his personal zero.

Case in point. Poor shots tend to flinch when they fire resulting in rounds that fly high and right. A poor shot may compensate by zeroing low and left. An expert would miss every time with such a zero but the poor shot might do fairly good with it at the distance where he zeroed. At other distances he won’t do so good since the amount of compensation is distance dependent.

Also, I heard that Oswald’s rifle was zeroed low and left.

[leadpenny]

You’re a drama queen and a fool.

[RGPII]

I heard Bugliosi on the radio and the caller was talking about a bullet and fragment probably hitting the curb and bloodying citizen Tague’s cheek near the Freeway Underpass. This is a point of contention that is difficult to clarify.

But talking about the cottage industry on the JFK assassination conspiracies; some of it is downright silly as can be.

This occurred way back in late ‘63; so here is this one website digging up a very laughable; “did this guy kill officer J.D. Tippit; with this mock photograph?? http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/tip.htm Too bad anyone could be vulnerable enough to be preyed on in this manner and it would be damaging to anyone with plausible questions. I mean this photo looks like absolute fakery, to the cheap sunglasses, the “age” question of something that happened about 45 years ago and obviously, the guy in the fedora is supposed to look shadey and the photo looks like a rather recent snapshot.

But I do appreciate the O. Stone treatment of the slaying of Tippit; of in one case, one man running away and then in another case, two men, one stockey among the 2, running off in the immediate moments after the slaying of Tippit.

[Oztrich Boy]

This was demonstrated in the 1970's. There is no way an expert using the gun Oswald did could get that many shot off and accurately.

Yeah. and OJ couldn't put the glove on either

People (some with minimal firearms experience) have done it numerous times. If an expert can'r do it that just shows he isn't really an expert

[ExSoldier]

You’re a drama queen and a fool.

No he's not. Only folks who really doubt the validity of their own arguments turn to the personal attack. That is the favorite tactic of the weak minded liberal. I personally disagree with Shooter2.5 on this one, but he is NO fool and no drama queen!

[Shooter 2.5]

My profession is based on facts, figures and the truth. I have to be accurate for every step of the process.

You seem to think all you have to do is spout out “Bush’s fault” or “no plane hit the pentagon” and posters are expected to believe you. You might learn something from Robert Heinlein’s “Fair Witnesses”.

Every Sunday, the carnival barkers set up on Dealy Plaza and try to convince the rubes their version of what happened that day. One book seller said there were seven shooters behind the picket fence. One seller tried to convince a passerby no planes hit the Twin Towers.

The question is are you one of those carnys or one of the rubes.

[Shooter 2.5]

The first bullet missed and hit a curb. The bullet fragments or concrete hit a man named James Tague who was standing near the underpass. That bullet or fragments were never found.

The second bullet traveled 2000 fps to hit the president 5 1/2inches [14 Centimeters]below the Mastoid Process and one inch to the right of the spine.

[The bullet wound also exhibited a Halo Effect which is a ring around a typical high speed bullet entrance wound], it hit no bones and exited out his neck[1772 to 1,779 feet per second] clipping his tie[photos of the tie]. It traveled 28 inches away[trajectory report]to hit Connelly near the right armpit[Doctor's report] clipping his rib[Doctor's report]and keyholed out his chest leaving a 2 inch by 1/2 inch wound [Doctor's report]. Connelly’s label moves outward at 223-224. [Zapruder film]

At this point it had only hit one bone and is now flying sideways when it hit the wrist [3/4 inch wound] and buries itself in a shallow wound[very little soft tissue damage,[Doctor's report] in the thigh leaving an amount of lead in the thigh. The amount of lead in the wrist and the bullet add up to the original weight of 161 grains which is the same amount of the bullets from the Western Ammunition Company. Connelly had a broken rib bone and wrist bone. {Doctor's report]. Cloth from his clothing was found in his wrist.

The third bullet hit Kennedy in the back of the head toward the right side forcing his head to move forward by approximately two inches. The bullet broke into two pieces at the bullet’s cannelure. One piece cracked the inside of the windshield near the mirror.

The second fragment hit the chrome strip at the top of the windshield. There are photographs in evidence of the crack and the dent. The two pieces were found at the front of the limousine, one on the floorboard and the other on the seat. The Zapruder film at 313-314 shows Kennedy’s head moving approximately two to three inches forward at the moment of impact.

The photographs of Kennedy’s head and skull show a small entrance hole and a large exit hole. Cratering of the hole at the back of the skull is typical of entrance holes. [Autopsy Report]

[ExSoldier]

He approached it from the perspective of a homicide detective arriving at the scene. He concluded Oswald acted alone.

Yeah but why are only 40% of all homicide cases cleared? Trust me it ain't CSI! Most murders are very straight forward events. They are cleared by direct forensic evidence like fingerprints and DNA (not theories of CSI technicians). They are more often cleared by witness testimony, confessions and even more frequently, confidential informants. In the instances of professional hits, well orchestrated and executed, the clearance rate is virtually zero. Rule #1 of such a scenario is have a patsy.

[RGPII]

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/tip.htm

Don Imus??

[leadpenny]

Calm down, queenie. I don’t care if anyone believes me. I don’t expect anyone to believe me. I just said what I believe. Accept it and move along before you have a stroke.

[RGPII]

Well written;

The “experts” Bugliosi etc. should debate this, it probably has been done.

[SoCal Pubbie]

The problem with any scenario where the same bullet does not strike both JFK and Connally is explaining the oblong wound in Connally’s back. This clearly indicates the bullet was tumbling when it struck the second man. The only explanation is that the bullet passed through JFK, hitting only soft tissue, slowed down, and hit Connally while it was tumbling.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Others could have been involved in the planning and execution of Oswald shooting JFK, but unfortunately there is no evidence of it whatsoever.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Another good book is “Conspiracy of One” by Jim Moore.

[RGPII]

The 3 Tramps were...?

The Wikipedia article on the JFK assassination relates what Rolling Stone calls Hunt’s death bed confession that he was one of the 3 tramps.

“He acknowledged that CIA agent Frank Sturgis and he were the “tramps” who were photographed in Dealey Plaza, and held by the Dallas Police shortly after the assassination.[44]” — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_assassination_theories

And the Harrelson tramp really is reported to be related to Woody; but I believe there are conflicting versions on what the tramp Harrelson had said in regards to that.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Obviously, you’re a CIA plant that has doctored the Zapruder film. Kennedy’s head goes backward, every conspiracy nut’s told me so and no darned facts are going to change my mind! Now where did I leave those sarcasm tags?