Posted on 06/23/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
(AP) SALT LAKE CITY -- Mitt Romney said Saturday that criticism of his Mormon religion by rival GOP presidential campaigns is happening too frequently.
“Clearly, any derogatory comments about anyone’s faith—those comments are troubling. The fact they keep on coming up is even more troubling,” Romney said during a fundraising trip in the home state of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Mormon church is one of the fastest-growing religions and claims about 12.5 million members worldwide. But many evangelical Christians in crucial primary states such as Iowa and South Carolina consider the faith a cult.
Romney’s remarks follow an apology from GOP rival John McCain’s campaign for comments about the Mormon church allegedly made this year by a volunteer.
Also recently, Republican presidential hopeful, Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, issued a similar apology for a campaign worker’s e-mail to Iowa Republican leaders that was an apparent attempt to draw unfavorable scrutiny of Romney’s religion. Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani apologized after the New York Sun noted that a campaign aide had forwarded to a blogger a story about unofficial Mormon lore. Legend has it that a Mormon would save the Constitution, the story said. The campaign aide passed the story along with a note: “Thought you’d find this interesting.”
Romney said in a large presidential race there always will be some volunteers or workers who cannot be controlled. But he said the difference between derogatory comments that originated from the McCain campaign and others is that the Arizona senator has not personally apologized to him.
“In the case of Senator Brownback and Mayor Giuliani ... they called immediately. They each spoke with me personally. I don’t have any issue with that at all,” Romney said.
He said McCain “can do whatever he feels is the right thing. There’s no need for me to suggest how people respond to things that go on in the campaign.”
Tucker Bounds, a McCain campaign spokesman, said the McCain campaign has already apologized.
“It’s a very sincere apology. There is absolutely no place for those type of comments in our campaign,” he said.
Romney, a former governor of Massachusetts, said he had not spoken with McCain since the last presidential debate, on June 5.
Romney used a fundraiser hosted by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller to criticize the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law. It banned unregulated, unlimited contributions from corporations, unions and wealthy individuals to national political parties and federal candidates.
“The bill ought to be repealed,” he said. “It’s been the wrong course for American campaigns.”
Romney said he favors unlimited donations as long as they are immediately disclosed on the Internet.
Romney was attending fundraisers in Salt Lake City and in Logan on Saturday.
Countdown beginning now for the first post that says your source is unacceptable....10....9......8......
“I am on record here and now that I will not tolerate sanctimonious Mormon bashers any more than sanctimonious Catholic or any other Christian religion bashers. “
How about sanctimonious Muslim death cult bashers? Or sanctimonious Jim Jones KoolAid bashers?
Or how about santimonious Mormons who believe all other Christians and Jews are abominations?
I know, the actual documents from their own prophets are unnacceptable
Sometimes I wonder how such nice people can be so brainwashed.
By the way...
Do you already have “sanctimonious” on the list of names
that Mormons have called others? I don’t remember seeing
that one before.
The whole rant is on the list.
“The Mormon Church claims to have restored the true teachings of Jesus.”
Right out of the gate, you are wrong. I’m a Mormon and we believe in the Jesus of the Holy Bible. We believe that Joseph Smith restored the authority of the Church on the earth. At the time of Smith’s vision, there were fierce battles going on in the form of revivals stomping through that area of New York. I believe it was called the “burned over” region because so many preachers had passed through. Revivalist preachers were competing with each other to get people to join their church. Joseph Smith wanted to know which church to join and he knelt in prayer and asked Heavenly Father for guidance. In the vision he was told to join none of them. Look around today. The same squabbles are going on - Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, Episcopal, Catholic . . . there’s one on every street corner practically.
When I was taking the discussions with the LDS Missionaries - Elder Chalker and Elder Gubler - they taught that all of the churches have some of the truth. I felt comfortable with that. I was raised in the Baptist church and later dabbled with the pentecostals. By the way, the Baptists and Pentecostals can’t get along with each other even today due to the speaking in tongues issue and “holiness” living. Whatever.
When I think of Joseph Smith, I think of a young man full of the Holy Ghost, obeying the Lord, leading his flock with all his heart, and suffering severe persecution and finally martyred for his beliefs.
Even the anti-Mormons have to admit it was wrong to murder him without a trial, judge or jury. He was murdered in cold blood by a mob of blood thirsty hoodlums.
I love my Church and I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Apologist spin may become a new dance for dervishes if this parsing catches on ... then again, maybe not since it is merely a form of deception to discredit.
Someone called Joseph Smith a “rodent”. It doesn’t hurt as much anymore thanks to all the defenders of the faith.
If you are a Mormon, then you need to re-read the book of Galatians, especially the part where Paul warned against an ANGEL or any other spirit bringing another Gospel
How many more quotes from Mormon documents do I need to post until you admit these are the doctrines of your religion?
Saundra,
“...finally martyred for his beliefs.
Even the anti-Mormons have to admit it was wrong to murder him without a trial, judge or jury. He was murdered in cold blood by a mob of blood thirsty hoodlums.”
You are telling a very one sided story here.
Do you consider someone “martyred” when they are holding
a handgun at the time?
I would not support shooting the guy. I also would not
call facing an armed man “martyrdom”. But then, in this
world, Muslims call it martyrdom when they die blowing
up other people.
best,
ampu
Other readers,
Here is some further information about the death of
Joseph Smith, including what he did to provoke hatred
and how he shot others before he himself was shot...
From Wikopedia - though wikopedia has some problems
with back and forth postings by people on both sides
of controversial issues (and this is one), it also
contains a pretty good historical sketch of the
events.
Death of Joseph Smith, Jr.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This article is part of the series
Joseph Smith, Jr.
1805 to 1827 - 1827 to 1830
1831 to 1834 - 1835 to 1838
1838 to 1842 - 1842 to 1844
Death - Polygamy - Teachings
Prophecies - Bibliography
Main article: Joseph Smith, Jr.
The death of Joseph Smith, Jr. on 27 June 1844 marked a turning point for the Latter Day Saint movement, of which Smith was the founder and leader. At the time of his death, Smith was serving as the mayor of Nauvoo, Illinois, and running for President of the United States. He was killed while being imprisoned in a jail in Carthage, Illinois, on charges relating to his destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper whose first and only edition alleged that Smith had been practicing plural marriage and that he intended to set himself up as a theocratic king. While in prison awaiting trial, an armed mob of men with painted faces stormed the jail and shot Smith and his brother Hyrum. Latter Day Saints view Joseph and Hyrum as Christian martyrs.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Preparation for succession
* 2 Incidents leading to the event
* 3 Incarceration at Carthage Jail
* 4 Attack by the mob
o 4.1 Taylor statement concerning Joseph Smith’s shots
* 5 Interment
* 6 See also
* 7 Notes
* 8 References
* 9 External links
[edit] Preparation for succession
Main article: Succession crisis (Mormonism)
Joseph’s brother Hyrum Smith, who was the Assistant President of the Church, was intended to succeed Joseph as President of the Church. Additionally, at a meeting with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the Council of 50, Joseph made statements to the effect that the authority to lead the Church was bestowed on members of those groups. According to the autobiography of Benjamin F. Johnson and the journal of Wilford Woodruff, Joseph, “in the presence of the Quorum of the Twelve and others who were encircled around him” rose and spoke at length about “his life and sufferings, and of the testimonies he had borne.” According to Woodruff he spoke for three hours with “his face...as amber, and he was covered with a power that [Woodruff] had never seen in the flesh before.” Finally, Johnson claims that Smith “said that the Lord had now accepted his labors and sacrifices, and did not require him any longer to carry the responsibilities and burden and bearing off of this kingdom, and turning to those around him, including the 12, he said, ‘And in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I now place it upon you my brethren of the council and I shake my skirts clear from all responsibility from this time forth.’”
[edit] Incidents leading to the event
Several of Smith’s disaffected associates at Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois—some of whom alleged that Smith had tried to marry their wives—joined together to publish a newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor. Its first and only issue was published 7 June 1844.
The bulk of the paper was devoted to three main criticisms of Smith: The opinion that Smith had once been a true prophet, but had fallen by advocating polygamy, Exaltation, and other controversial doctrines; the opinion that Smith, as both Mayor of Nauvoo and President of the Church held too much power, which was further consolidated by the overwhelmingly Mormon make-up of Nauvoo’s courts and city council, who intended establishing a theocracy via the Council of Fifty; and the belief that Smith had corrupted women by forcing, coercing or introducing them into plural marriage.
In response to public outrage generated by the paper, the Nauvoo city council passed an ordinance declaring the newspaper a public nuisance designed to promote violence against Smith and his followers. They reached this decision after lengthy discussion, including citation of William Blackstone’s legal canon, which included a libelous press as a public nuisance. According to the council’s minutes, Smith said he “would rather die tomorrow and have the thing smashed, than live and have it go on, for it was exciting the spirit of mobocracy among the people, and bringing death and destruction upon us.”[1]
Under the council’s new ordinance, Smith, as Nauvoo’s mayor, in conjunction with the city council, ordered the city marshal to destroy the paper and the press on June 10, 1844. By the city marshal’s account, the destruction of the press type was carried out orderly and peaceably. However, Charles A. Foster, a co-publisher of the Expositor, reported on June 12 that additionally to the printing press being destroyed, the group which he dubbed “several hundred minions ... injured the building very materially” as well,[2] though this is contradicted by the fact that the building was in use for at least another decade.[citation needed]
Smith’s critics said that he had violated freedom of the press. Some sought legal charges against Smith for the destruction of the press, including charges of inciting riot and treason. Violent threats were made against Smith and the Mormon community. Thomas Sharp, editor of the Warsaw Signal, a newspaper hostile to the Mormons, editorialized:
“ War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens ARISE, ONE and ALL!!!—Can you stand by, and suffer such INFERNAL DEVILS! To ROB men of their property and RIGHTS, without avenging them. We have no time for comment, every man will make his own. LET IT BE MADE WITH POWDER AND BALL!!! (Warsaw Signal, 12 June 1844, p. 2.) ”
Warrants from outside Nauvoo were brought in against Smith and dismissed in Nauvoo courts on a writ of habeas corpus. Smith declared martial law on June 18 and called out the Nauvoo Legion, an organized city militia of about 5,000 men, to protect Nauvoo from outside violence.
[edit] Incarceration at Carthage Jail
An etching of the Carthage Jail, c. 1885
An etching of the Carthage Jail, c. 1885
Illinois Governor Thomas Ford proposed a trial by a non-Mormon jury in Carthage, the county seat, and guaranteed Smith’s safety. Smith originally planned on leaving rather than surrendering but when criticized by some followers is reported to have said “If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself.”[3] Smith reluctantly agreed and submitted to arrest, further quoted as saying “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.”[4]
On 25 June 1844, Joseph and Hyrum Smith, along with the other fifteen city council members and some friends, surrendered to Carthage constable David Bettisworth on the original charge of riot. Almost immediately Joseph and Hyrum were charged with treason against the state of Illinois for declaring martial law in Nauvoo, by a warrant founded upon the oaths of A. O. Norton and Augustine Spencer. At a preliminary hearing that afternoon the city council members were released on $500 bonds, pending later trial. The judge ordered Joseph and Hyrum Smith to be held in jail until they could be tried for treason, a capital offense.
The Smith brothers and their companions were held at the Carthage Jail, joined there by Dr. Willard Richards, and John Taylor. Governor Ford left for Nauvoo not long after Smith went to stay at the jail. The anti-Mormon Carthage Greys, a local militia, were assigned to protect Smith.
[edit] Attack by the mob
The door in Carthage Jail through which the mob fired. Note the bullet hole in the door.
The door in Carthage Jail through which the mob fired. Note the bullet hole in the door.
Before a trial could be held, a mob of about 200 armed men, their faces painted black with wet gunpowder, stormed the jail in the late afternoon of 27 June 1844. As the mob was approaching, the jailer became nervous, and informed Smith of the group. In a letter dated 10 July 1844, one of the jailers wrote that Smith, expecting the Nauvoo Legion, said “Don’t trouble yourself ... they’ve come to rescue me.”[citation needed]
The Carthage Greys reportedly feigned defense of the jail by firing shots or blanks over the attackers’ heads, and some of the Greys reportedly joined the mob, who rushed up the stairs.
The mob fired shots through the door and attempted to push the door open to fire into the room. Hyrum Smith was shot in the face, just to the left of his nose. He cried out, “I am a dead man!” and collapsed. His body received five additional gunshot wounds.
Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock gave him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day. Three of the six barrels misfired. Taylor later stated he had been informed that two assailants had died[5] of wounds received from the pistol; however, witnesses identified three injured men who survived and were later indicted for the murder of Joseph Smith.[6]
John Taylor was shot four or five times and was severely injured, but survived, one shot being stopped by his pocketwatch (the hands stopped at 5:16). Richards escaped unscathed as he was pushed behind the door when it was forced open.
Joseph Smith made his way towards the window. As he prepared to jump down, Richards reported that he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest.
1851 lithograph of Smith’s body being mutilated. (Library of Congress).
1851 lithograph of Smith’s body being mutilated. (Library of Congress).
Taylor and Richards’ accounts both report that as Smith fell from the window, he called out “Oh Lord, my God!”
There are varying accounts of what happened next. Taylor and Richards’ accounts state that Smith was dead when he landed after his fall. One eyewitness, William Daniels, wrote in his 1845 account that Smith was alive when mob members propped his body against a nearby well, assembled a makeshift firing squad, and shot him before fleeing. Daniels’ account also states that one man tried to decapitate Smith for a bounty, but was prevented by divine intervention. There were additional reports that thunder and lightning frightened the mob off. Mob members fled, shouting, “The Mormons are coming,” although there was no such force nearby.[7]
Joseph Smith’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, summarized the account as follows:
“My sons were thrown into jail, where they remained in company with Brothers Richards, Taylor and Markham. At the end of this time, the Governor disbanded most of the men, but left a guard of eight of our bitterest enemies over the jail, and sixty more of the same character about a hundred yards distant. He then came into Nauvoo with a guard of fifty or sixty men, made a short speech, and returned immediately. During his absence from Carthage, the guard rushed Brother Markham out of the place at the point of the bayonet. Soon after this two hundred of those discharged in the morning rushed into Carthage, armed and painted black, red and yellow, and in ten minutes fled again, leaving my sons’ murdered and mangled corpses!”
After the deaths, much speculation was made about who was responsible. Governor Ford was accused of knowing about the plot to kill Smith, and some said he even approved of it. Ford denied this, but he later wrote that it was good for the Mormons to have been driven out of the state and said that their beliefs and actions were too different to have survived in Illinois. He said Smith was “the most successful impostor in modern times,” and that some people “expect more protection from the laws than the laws are able to furnish in the face of popular excitement.”
[edit] Taylor statement concerning Joseph Smith’s shots
John Taylor, who became the third President of the Mormon Church, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:
“Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, ‘Would any of you like to have this?’ Brother Joseph immediately replied, ‘Yes, give it to me,’ whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket.... I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs.... (Hyrum was shot in the face and was killed instantly, John Taylor continued)
I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died.” (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)”
Taylor’s statement evidences that there was discussion regarding the possible death of two men, but it was hearsay on Taylor’s part.
“Most accounts seem to agree that three mob members were wounded by Joseph’s gunfire: John Wills, an Irishman who had joined the mob from “his congenital love of a brawl,” was apparently shot in the arm by the prophet (CHC 2:285 n.19); William Voras, a “half grown, hobbledehoy from Bear Creek,” was shot in the shoulder by Joseph (ibid.); and William Gallaher, a “southerner from the Mississippi Bottom” who supposedly was shot in the face. (Ibid., see also Oaks and Hill, 52.) A Mr. John Hay claimed that a fourth man “‘whose name I will not mention, as he is prepared to prove an alibi, and besides stands six feet two in his moccasins’” was also wounded (CHC 2:285 n.19.) This fourth man was identified as a Mr. Allen, who, along with Wills, Voras and Gallaher, were all indicted for the murder of Joseph and Hyrum. Wills, Voras and Gallaher “were probably named in the indictment because of their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob.” (Oaks and Hill, 52.) According to one source, the “citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing.” (Ibid., 53.) None of these four assailants were ever arrested or appeared for trial, and one report claimed that at least three of these men had left the state. (Ibid., 79.)
Although it is possible that one or more of these men died as a result of the wounds they received during their mob attack, there is no evidence to suggest that such is the case, other than second or third hand reports which most scholars have dismissed as folklore.”[1]
[edit] Interment
“We believe that Joseph Smith restored the authority of the Church on the earth.”
Which means you believe the rest of us are apostates doomed to hell, it can’t get much clearer than that. So when you call others bigots, please take some time to look in the mirror.
Ampu, I must say I am shocked by your support of cold blooded murder.
A cheap pistol that was smuggled into prison to try to make the mob think twice about cold blooded murder does not in any way mitigate the circumstances in which Joseph Smith was indeed murdered.
Joseph knew that if he had been willing to renounce his beliefs, he would have been spared. He was killed for his faith; leaving a grieving family and children behind and to you this is not martyrdom because he had a pistol with six shots and no way to reload against 200 men with rifles and pistols and many charges for their weapons?
The only reason a mob would have killed him before the trial is they believed he would get off the same ruse, and charges having been filed before and never being proved.
The Governor calling away all the regular troops and leaving a militia made up of locals who had been created because some feared the Mormons with their 5,000 Strong Nauvoo Legion was made up of those who were opposed to us to the point of committing atrocities themselves. (The phrase the fox guarding the hen house comes to mind)
Governor Ford saw Joseph who was mayor of the largest city in Illinois at the time as a political threat, and pulled the troops away from his defense to go to a speech! This was announced in advance and the Mob knew exactly when and where Joseph was going to be and that the protectors would be friends of theirs.
Governor Ford may not have “known” but it is only plausible deniability, he should have known. In this day and age, he would be tried for murder himself.
Ampu, do you advocate the murder of those you disagree with on religion? (I can’t help but picture beheadings here) If not your comments here are out of character, and should be amended.
I hope you are well, and my God bless you with charity
Now THAT's intelligent debate...
/sarc
“Ampu, do you advocate the murder of those you disagree with on religion? (I can’t help but picture beheadings here) If not your comments here are out of character, and should be amended.”
Since I didn’t advocate that, I’ll just allow my comment
and the Wiki post to stand unamended. Thanks.
“I find your post to violate most of the rules of posting mane calling, slander,”
I called you no names. But we are quite used to you “claiming” name calling and slander in order to try and win by innuendo. You can nowhere find in my previous post a single sentence where I call you a buffoon, a liar, a jackanape, or any of the other terms I might use if I were in the business of gratuitous slander, so you stand corrected in your shell game.
“no supporting documentation while stating opinions as fact,”
Come now, you base everything you say on a book so self-inconsistent that it gives strict documentation a black eye and a kick in the rear. Besides, you’ve made it clear that no evidence presented by the antis will ever be accepted by you (you cannot do so, else the whole Mormon house of cards would fall down).
“IMHO there is little substance to your post.”
It wasn’t meant to be a substantive document rehashing the last three months of evidence given by myself and others that Joseph Smith was a philandering, glass gazing, tinpot general, false prophet and general scalliwag. I assumed that anyone who had read through what would be a hundred pounds of documentation would have the mental capacity to realize Joseph Smith was just a carni scamster. But since you aren’t capable of that, then I must assume you are a lost cause and that if Brigham Young said there were aliens on the dark side of the moon, you’d believe him.
Since it is clear that in your mind there is literally NO act by Joseph Smith or the Prophets that followed him that was in error (they being Gods-to-be after all), there is literally zero reason to present new data to you (though that is not the case with others). Go read the last few thousand post threads if you want even More evidence.
**********************************
Regarding the Nauvoo Expositor:
FC:The Nauvoo Expositor’s description of Joseph and Hiram’s running a tin-pot dictatorship is true to form.
DU: ROTFLOL! The Nauvoo expositor was specifically set up to print lies and stir up controversy with the Mormons! To quote them as some sort of authority means you either didn’t research them, or well, I’ll leave that up to the readers
Oh please, I guess in that case you believe FreeRepublic should be destroyed as well, because it has graciously given voice to those of us who according to you “print lies and stir up controversy with the Mormons!” Joseph Smith and brother Hiram simply had the Nauvoo Expositor press destroyed when it began to reveal they were harboring fugitives, stealing wives, involved in land speculation and voter intimidation. I assume since Joseph Smith was such a saint, you’d follow in his footsteps and have FreeRepublic shut down as well.
But go ahead and keep discussing the backwater nasty blackholes of Mormon history, we can certainly continue in that swampland for eternity.
***************************************
FC: The polygynous/polyandrous adultery thing, especially with a 14 year old pimped by papa Heber Kimbal is thoroughly disgusting.
DU:Mary, you know, Jesus’ mother was 15 when he was born. I have seen estimates as low as 13, but 15 is what the Catholics say. Two of the 14 year olds were were WIDOWS when Joseph married them, The other two’s husbands were missing and presumed dead.
Wow, that sure makes it all right then. Of course, the Kimball girl was convinced BY HER FATHER to be Smith’s wife, and since Heber was a church leader himself, I doubt she was starving. And I guess all the other founding Father’s were just taking in waifs out of the goodness of their hearts. Why don’t you go do a search for Joseph Smith’s love letters to see how he was sneaking out on Emma to do the fandango out of the goodness of his heart.
“Have a good day now.”
Well, at least I’ll be honest, since you are in fact wishing me a bad day, I will do the same to you.
The real problem for you is that you’ve begun to realize that these huge threads have exposed thousands of readers to the shadowy underworld of Mormon history and pseudo-prophecy. If your occult worldview of seer stones, brass orbs, magic underwear, secret handshakes, etc. is correct, then the rest of us really are assinine apostates doomed to hell. Obviously it just causes you a world of frustration not to be able to shout “damn you all to hell you heathen”.
But I suspect that day will come, you will reveal your true colors.
Hey, how’s that Romney guy doing in the polls, a God like him should have already skyrockedted to the top.
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