Romney: Attacks On Mormon Religion Troubling

CBS 4 MIAMI ^ | 23 JUNE 2007 | AP

[aMorePerfectUnion]

CUH,
If you want to pay the OT Biblical Tithes, you are looking at
over 30%! How’s that going for you?

ampu

[ComeUpHigher]

The only person who is “incorrectly representing” your views is yourself. Below is your statement that such people are, in your words, “BBQ.”

To: greyfoxx39

Now that you’ve expressed your disagreement with ladylawyer’s post, please tell us what happens to all the good folks who have lived (or will live) on Earth and who never accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and were born again?

What is their fate?

333 posted on 06/04/2007 3:04:19 PM PDT by ComeUpHigher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 327 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: ComeUpHigher
“What is their fate?”
BBQ

Revelation 20:11-15

336 posted on 06/04/2007 3:11:18 PM PDT by Enosh (†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 333 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

If you have a problem with YOUR description, you should take it up with yourself. Remember what the scriptures say about a double-minded man. I’m sure DanielLongo will be able to determine from the above posts whether you referred to such people as “BBQ.”

[ComeUpHigher]

I don’t know, eternal life?

[Enosh]

The only person who is “incorrectly representing” your views is yourself.

Well, there's a neat trick. Now you say I don't know what I think.

[Reno232]

Good one! Nice to see some still try & have a sense of humor here. Of course, for those who may have misunderstood, that was a matter of speaking.

How about you AMPU, out of curiousity, do you believe in the Nicene & Athanasian creeds & what is espoused therin?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Your description is very close to the way I have come to know Jesus.”

Tant, last night when I finished posting, I made sure all
my chickadees were in before their 12am curfew, then I
headed upstairs to bed. As I was brushing my teeth, I was
replaying your words in my head and I stopped to jot down
a thought so I wouldn’t forget it.

Here it is...

You say your experience was “very close” to mine. Yet in
the final analysis, placing faith in Christ is not an
experience - meaning, it is not the experience that saves. It is entrusting ourselves to Him fully that saves.

And what I specifically wrote was, “Ask Tant if his “experience”
resulted in the 100% assurance that, if he were to die
tonight, he would spend eternity in the presence of God.”

So, you can PM me or post here or skip answering as you like,
but I wondered as a follower of the doctrines of young Smith,
did you “experience” result in the certainty that you will
spend eternity in God’s presence?

Here’s why I ask...

The Bible teaches, that for those who have placed their trust
in Christ’s finished work on the cross for them, to be
absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We step
out of this life and step into eternity, in the presence of
God. And this is not based on anything we did, added to or
contributed by way of good deeds or works or any ritual
whatsoever.

To you now...

best,
ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Please, first tell me the cost of a “subscription” -
and whether that is yearly or discounted for multiple
years. And do you have an autobill service linked to
my Visa or Amex?

[Reno232]

I thought you were joking, maybe not. Oxford dictionary, subscribe: 2. express ones agreement with an opinion, resolution etc.

Now, how about the creeds? Your opinion.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Here's a creed I believe, right from the Bible!

 

שמע ישראל אדני אלהינו אדני אחד

 

I hope that is definitive enough for you!

 

best,

ampu

 

[Reno232]

O.K., that’s a creed you believe. Do you believe the Nicene & Athanasian creeds? I’m trying to gauge where your some of your beliefs derive.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Reno911,

I think I have been abundantly clear with sharing
my personal experience and through the basis of
our discussions here that my beliefs derive directly
from the Bible - the 66 Books we see wrapped in
leather. The basis of my belief and my faith do
not derive from a historical creed. However, if it
does anything for your understanding, I agree with
the statements of the historic Church creeds, having
found them to represent that which is revealed in
scripture.

Do you know what a creed is, btw?

creed [Lat. credo=I believe], summary of basic doctrines of faith.

They are simply a summary of what the Church Universal believes, based on the Bible.

The historic creeds, starting with those in scipture, like
that I posted above, and the early Apostle’s Creed and
on are summaries of what the Bible teaches. Historically,
they grew more specific in the face of heresy and doctrinal
errors - such as those that made the same doctrinal errors
as mormonism. Amazingly, I know of no other cult that includes
as many separate heresies that the Church already condemned,
than mormonism. It must hold the record...

best,
ampu

PS - as a personal aside to you Reno, I have always been
amused that there is criticism of the date of the Nicean
Creed, since that is exactly the point in history that
certain heresies were troubling the Church... yet mormonism,
is a created religion dating from ~1830! Mormonism strains
at the relatively early dated gnat of the Church Creeds and
swallows the camel of a late blooming cult! :-)

Are you familiar with the historical time of the rise of
mormonism in America (along with Jehovah’s Witnesses and
Christian Science)? Are you familiar with the religious
influences in the region of the US that Joseph Smith grew
up with? Once you see those, you realize where he got many
of the ideas of “restoration”, etc.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Greg,

You asked me for some Bible Study research showing the Greek word for believe in

John 3:16. I am posting it here, since private mail does not allow html formatting.

Anyone else can read or skip.

 

best,

ampu

 

 

4100 πιστεύω [pisteuo /pist·yoo·o/] . From 4102; 6:174; 849; 4409; 248 occurrences; translates as “believe” 239 times, “commit unto” four times, “commit to (oneÂ’s) trust” once, “be committed unto” once, “be put in trust with” once, “be commit to oneÂ’s trust” once, and “believer” once. 1 to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in. 1a of the thing believed. 1a1 to credit, have confidence. 1b in a moral or religious reference. 1b1 used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul. 1b2 to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith. 1bc mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith. 2 to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity. 2a to be intrusted with a thing.

v: verb

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume

Goodrick-Kohlenberger

Authorized Version

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G4100). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

 

 

4100.     πιστεύω pisteuō; from 4102; to believe, entrust:— believe(118), believed(73), believers(3), believes(29), believing(10), do(1), entrust(1), entrusted(6), entrusting(1), has faith(1).

Thomas, R. L. (1998, 1981). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition (H8674). Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

 

4409 πιστεύω (pisteuō): ; ≡ 586; 4100; 6.174—1. 31.35 think to be true, to believe, implying trust (Mt 24:23; Lk 1:20; 1Co 11:18; Jas 2:19; Mk 16:13, 14 ); 2. LN 31.85 trust, faith, believe to the extent of complete trust (Mt 18:6; Ro 4:3; 1Pe 2:6; Mk 16:17 v.r.); 3. LN 31.102 have Christian faith, become a believer the Gospel (Ac 4:32; Ro 1:16; Mk 16:16 v.r.); 4. LN 35.50 entrust, put something into the care of another (Ro 3:2; Gal 2:7; 1Th 2:4; 1Ti 1:11; Tit 1:3)

verb

Swanson, A Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains: Hebrew (Old Testament)

StrongÂ’s Lexicon

Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

Louw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon

varia lectio, variant reading in a manuscript

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) (GGK4409). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

πιστευω Strongs No: 4100

Transliterated: pisteuo; Pronounced: pist-yooÂ’-o

from 4102;  6:174; 

 &  in the — believe 239 times, commit unto 4 times, commit to (oneÂ’s) trust 1 time, be committed unto 1 time, be put in trust with 1 time, be commit to oneÂ’s trust 1 time, believer 1 time; 248 occurrences of Greek word in AV

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

a. of the thing believed

1. to credit, have confidence

b. in a moral or religious reference

1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

a. to be intrusted with a thing

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

verb

Different Translation(s) of this Greek word in the Authorized Version.

frequency

Authorized Version

Ephesians Four Group. (.). Greek Dictionary (electronic ed.) (2). :: ,.

[tantiboh]

~”Oh? Was 1087 addressed to YOU?”~

Nope, but you requesting “silly nitpick” be put on “the list” was.

Talk to me when you’re ready for primetime. I look forward to it.

[DanielLongo]

Yes, this dispensation is made up of many generations. This generation and all that follow in this dispensation is how it is stated. You say you read the Bible too. What you need to work on is comprehension.

[DanielLongo]

Don't folks have to do this to be 'called' an LDS member?

Yes, but they are still Christians. Just as a Catholic doesn't have to subscribe to the beliefs of a Southern Baptist to be called a Christian.

[Reno232]

Thank you for your candid response. I appreciate your beliefs & the fervor in which you follow them even though I ardently disagree w/ some of them.

Here’s what I’m sincerely trying to understand, you believe the bible to be the word of the Lord & rightfully so. But, if I understand you correctly, you also believe that the bible is it, all that we need as far as the spoken word is concerned. Nothing should be added to or subtracted from, correct?

You also state that you agree w/ the statements of the historic creeds “having found them to represent that which is revealed in scripture”. Yet I think you’ll agree w/ me that many of the opinions set forth in those creeds (especially the Athanasian creed that gets much more specific about the Trinity)are absolutely nowhere to be found in the bible, anywhere! I would challenge you to recite scripture that talks about even half of what is found in that creed. Now, that in and of itself would not neccessarily disuede some from believing in the correctness & divinity of that document. The fact that those who where called of man to put that document together claimed absolutely no inspiration or revelation in doing so could.

Remember, as I stated earlier, these men were not unanimous in their decision. They fought bitterly at times & were never all of one accord. I find it intriguing at times that some base so much of their faith on the writtings of those who openly claimed no inspiration but relied soley on their own intellect & reasoning as to what the bible meant. Something the Lord warned repeatedly against in the bible.

You say “Historically, they grew more specific in the face of heresy and doctrinal errors “. You are abolutely correct. The Apostles were long gone by then & the fundemental organization as set up by the Lord & continued by the Apostles long since compromised. The leaders at approx. 300 & 500 a.d. when these creeds were developed could have called upon the Lord for direction but instead chose to believe that the heavens were closed & that they had no choice but to go it alone.

Sad from my perspective. I believe that back then as we do now, one can call upon the Lord for answers to those kind of questions, & then actually receive answers! Am I heritical for daring not to walk in lock step w/ those of yester year who didn’t even ask the Lord & whose assertions are NOT backed by the writtings of the bible? I’ll let the Lord judge that one despite the efforts of some here to do that for him.

You intimate that the LDS faith is a new one & you state a lot of other things associated w/ that. Christ’s church was somewhat of a new thing according to many of the Jews of the time. They said many of the same things back then. We need no more scripture, we need no prophet, we are learned & know much & we will teach you what is needed. Christ was called a heretic as well. I’ll count that as being in good company!

As I said before, I appreciate you zeal towards the Lord & the conviction you have. I also appreciate your sharing your feelings w/ me. I’ve shared some of my feelings as well. I hope they will be recieved as they were inteded to be.

Have a great weekend my friend

[DanielLongo]

I believe in God. So I am saved. What is your problem then?

[tantiboh]

~”Ask Tant if his “experience” resulted in the 100% assurance that, if he were to die tonight, he would spend eternity in the presence of God.”~

Because of my faith in Christ, I have hope of obtaining Eternal Life (i.e. Salvation). This hope helps me be determined to obey the Lord. We might call this obedience “works.”

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/12/4#4
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/7/24#24

Of course, I could cite many supporting verses from the Bible; but they have already been presented numerous times.

The three concepts are interlocked. If I cease to strive to obey (cease to perform “good works”), then my hope fades. As my hope fades, my faith dwindles.

In other words, my obedience is a means to keeping my faith well-maintained. Therefore, as long as I’m striving for obedience, I have the assurance - a result of faith - that you mention.

I believe that we view faith differently; you view it as an event. I view it as a process. Faith is like a seed; tend it well, and it will grow. Neglect it, and it will struggle and finally wilt away.

This analogy is explained and expanded here:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/32

Whether a Christian believes in the Book of Mormon or not, that chapter is one that is well worth the time to read and ponder. If you were to say to me, “OK, bub, I’m only going to read one chapter from the Book of Mormon. What’s it gonna be?” then this would be my suggestion. Better than any other place in the scriptures, in my opinion, it expounds on and explains the simple principle of faith. It is profitable for any person who wants to learn about faith.

Some people say, “Don’t feed me that Book of Mormon rubbish! The whole book is false!” I don’t think you are one such. Whether or not the book is false, this chapter is filled with good wisdom, and I hope you will be able to profit from it.

[restornu]

The truth be known, prior to 1980 you almost never heard that Jesus was God.

I think this is a new doctrine that has taken off.

I believe he is God’s only begotton son.

I think that the obession that some have for saying that Jesus is God acutally takes away from Jesus and actually delutes the real meaning of what he did and why he came to earth and also delutes the love that the Father had for his son and that the son had for his father.

By insisiting that Jesus is God, I believe meaning is actually taken away from what really happened.

Some of my favorit hymns was

"Holy Holy Holy"

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty!
Unto everlasting days our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, Holy, Holy, Merciful and Mighty!
God in Three Persons, blessed Trinity!

"Abba, Father," we approach Thee

"Abba, Father," we approach Thee
In our Savior's precious name.
We, Thy children, here assembling,
Now the promised blessing claim.
From our guilt His blood has washed us,
'Tis through Him our souls draw nigh,
And Thy Spirit too has taught us
"Abba, Father," thus to cry.

I think I know what you are talking about when I was in main stream they never ever gone into explaining this contortion view they have now!

They never dwell on the Trinity strutcture on, many of the old hymns reflect God as 3 Persons, it seems many were old timers disappoint as time went by the old hymns were not the top 40 anymore, and I have no clue what that bland stuff they sing today, gettings people waving thier hands over their heads like bunch of zombies!

The god from the underworld is one, but Heavenly Father has a family which the God I worship.

On the Christian forum the Nicene Creed rules, and the Apostles creed has been Persona Non Gratis

They can among themselves say it aint so, but those of us who are old enought remember all too well!:)

[Saundra Duffy]

Joseph Smith loved Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost was his companion and friend. We Mormons have had to endure vile rhetoric about Joseph Smith, a man whom we consider the first Prophet of our Church. There is no reason to beat a dead horse. We are used to it and we take it in stride. As I’ve said many times, Joseph Smith predicted this would happen - that his name would be known for good and evil. You are fulfilling prophesy and so am I.

Again, Jesus Christ died for me, and I thank Heavenly Father for sending Him. We’d all be lost without Jesus.