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To: Nickname
You don't help your case. I didn't like the last bill but the point is that you don't win by behaving badly.

/8/2007 - 11:08 pm
This post is an extension of the thoughts I expressed in this one, which I wrote a few days ago.

I think the Republican party has lost its collective mind. I don’t think I’ve ever been more ashamed to be a Republican than I have been after these last few weeks. Why? I’m appalled at some of the rhetoric, tactics, blatant hypocrisy, and pot-calling-the-kettle-black that has been on display on both sides of the conservative aisle on the immigration issue, and I say this as someone who isn’t in any side’s “camp” but is just frustrated on the whole with how the debate was conducted. And before I really get going on this, let me just say that I know that not everyone who argued for or against this bill is guilty of what I’m about to discuss, but it was far more than just the ‘fringe’ in the Republican party who made the Nutroots look like bastions of civility and maturity by comparison. Also, I will be using the terms “we” “us” “let’s” “our” quite a bit in general, and should not be construed into meaning “all.” I’m well aware there are exceptions to the rule.

The issue of illegal immigration, as we all know by now, is one of the most - if not the most - hotly debated issues in the country and has been even since before the President was elected back in 2000. Understandably emotions run high no matter who’s talking about it, because not only is it considered a cultural issue, but a national security issue, too. The debates primarily consist of but are not limited to what to do with the estimated 12 million illegals we already have here (deport ‘em all? Jail ‘em?), what to do about the ones pouring over our borders and draining our resources and, as some say, steal our jobs, how to more effectively secure our borders in order to keep potential terrorists out of our country, and how to strengthen our existing laws against illegals who will come here.

I don’t question the good intentions the conservatives who opposed this bill had/have, nor did I oppose the calls to contact and put pressure on Congressional representatives from both the House and Senate to oppose this bill. As citizens of this great country, it is our right and duty to get involved in the democratic process and that includes writing and calling our Congressional reps when we’re in favor of something, as well as letting them know when we oppose something. As our representatives, they have an idea of how we feel on the issues in general, but if we don’t let them know how we feel on certain key controversial issues, they’re going to cast their votes without that knowledge in mind. It is fascinating to see how this country’s government works when the citizens of it actually take an active role in trying to inject change on issues that are important to them. Generations ago, men died for our right to play active, not passive, roles in our government, so it is vital for the survival of our nation that we not take that right for granted.

By the same token, I don’t question the president’s good intentions on wanting to pass ‘comprehensive immigration reform.’ He came into the WH after being a two-term governor of the border state of Texas, and it wasn’t exactly a secret that he was in favor of naturalization then, so the positions he’s taken on the issue of illegal immigration have not been a shock to me, nor should they have been to anyone else. To accuse the President of ‘betrayal’ on this issue when his position should have been well-known from the getgo is baffling to me.

What I despised, deplored, and was disgusted by throughout all this was the way conservatives treated each other as it related to disagreements over this issue. There were strong arguments for and against this bill, but lost in all that was the need to “one up” the opposition, whether it was Senator Graham foolishly accusing the bill’s opponents of being “bigots”, the President wrongly questioning the patriotism of conservative critics or people like Tom Tancredo and others like him claiming that anyone who didn’t oppose every aspect of this bill “had to be” a proponent of “open borders” and “shamnesty” and were, essentially, “traitors” to their country for “not wanting to secure its borders.” Incidentally, Tom Tancredo is a guy I do not respect, considering he’s not just against illegal immigration, but he’s against legal immigration as well.1 Tancredo is popular with many on the anti-immigration bill side, and I hope to see more denounciations of his suggestion in the immediate future. Of course, I have to wonder how many Tancredo supporters agree with that sentiment, especially since he’s been expressing it for a few years now and has maintained his popularity amongst staunch immigration bill opponents. Oh, and let’s not forget the calls for impeachment from Michael Savage and Pat Buchanan, either. Along with that, there’s at least one full thread devoted to Bush’s impeachment not at the Daily Kos or the usual Nutroot hangouts … but the Free Republic. This is insanity.

Conservatives talk all the time about how liberals shouldn’t whine about “hurt feelings” and tell them they need to “suck it up” but deep down, conservatives, too, are very passionate about what they believe in and they get hurt and angered when members of their own party start insulting them over policy disagreements. It’s not wimpy to be honest by admitting that. And let’s not pretend that the insulting only started once President and key members of the administration started badmouthing opponents of this bill. It’s been going on for a while now, because the immigration issue can’t seem to get resolved in Congress no matter how often its brought up, because it’s so contentious and the warring factions can’t come to an agreement as to what the final bill should look like because so many people involved in the debate are “all or nothing” types. I can’t count the number of times over the years I’ve seen accusations towards the President of of “being in bed with the Mexican president” by other conservatives, calling the president “Jorge,” putting his face on the Mexican peso, assertions that the president is a ’sell-out’ and ‘apparently doesn’t care about national security’ which is total BS, because he’s taken a lot of crap from the usual suspects on the left about the Patriot Act, Gitmo, warentless wiretapping - you name it. Just about every measure the President has taken in order to reduce the chances of another attack on our soil has been vilified by the left. He’s been accused of going ‘too far’ so let’s not kid ourselves by thinking that because he doesn’t take the typical conservative view on illegal immigration, that he’s not concerned about our national security.

Our best chance to get a remotely meaningful immigration bill has passed because we no longer have control of Congress and likely won’t for years to come. Sure, under the Republican Congress the issue didn’t get resolved the last time it came up but we still would have stood a better shot at getting even a halfway decent bill had Republicans maintained control of Congress. As it stands, they didn’t, so we’re stuck with what we have now: A Democratic House we have little to no control over, and a Democratic Senate that has more often than not been gridlocked, thanks in large part to the leadership of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell who, in spite of his woefully ignorant comment about “I don’t think there’s a single member of either party next year who is going to fail to be re-elected over this [immigration] issue,” has been a solid rock in the Senate by playing Senate Majority Harry Reid like a fiddle. I disagree with anyone, including my friend John Hawkins, who believes that because of one ignorant comment by McConnell, that he’s “mediocre” and “out of touch” and shouldn’t be reelected next year and should be replaced by a candidate nobody knows. McConnell’s strengths far outweigh his weaknesses and if I were a constituent in Kentucky, I would personally campaign on behalf of the Senator for his reelection, the same as I would Senator Jon Kyl, who was considered a rock-ribbed conservative until he decided to join the compromise for a meaningful immigration bill both sides could (hopefully) come together on and from there on was, like any other Republican who shared similar viewpoints to his, villified as a sell out and traitor to his country.

I frequently read arguments from some of the people who opposed this bill “better no bill than this one.” While I understand the sentiment behind it, I don’t agree with it in this case, because if we don’t do something about this issue now (and by “now” I mean before this Congressional term is over), the immigration bill under a Democratic administration (which I think we’ll have) is going to make Bush’s “shamnesty” bill look like the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel. I’m ok with the bill being ‘tabled’ for now, but I want it resolved before the election year campaigning starts going full force next year, because if this thing keeps getting shoved to the back burner, we can look forward to one of the worst illegal immigration ’solutions’ this country has ever seen and it could very well happen under a Democrat president’s ‘leadership’ and if Democrats get more seats in the Senate, we will be powerless to stop a real “shamnesty” plan, because do you think they’re going to give a damn what Republicans have to say about it?

If there’s anything I’ve learned over the years about the issues that are the most important to me, it’s to learn to be happy with the little victories because the big victories are hard to come by. Take, for example, abortion. It’s no secret that I oppose abortion, but I’m also a realist and realize that abortion can’t be outlawed tomorrow. It’s just not going to happen. So I take comfort in the little victories - like the ban on PBA, and the restrictions on funding for embryonic stem cell research and US funding for international abortions (both advocated by this President, BTW). Those are baby steps (no pun intended) towards a - hopefully - change in attitude on right to life issues. I believe that step by step with each small victory, one day, we just may get to a point in this country where babies aren’t looked at as a “choice” but instead a “child” by an overwhelming majority of the American people. That will be the “big victory” for me. Abortion, as I’ve said before, is my “no compromise” issue, so if the party ever did turn it’s back on its pro-life platform, I’d be saying goodbye.

I think conservatives need to take the same approach with respect to the immigration issue. We simply aren’t going to get everything we want in an immigration bill. We’re going to have to take a little bad with the good. And as I noted earlier, if we don’t get this issue resolved soon, it may very well be in the hands of a Democrat administration to deal with. Which would you rather see? Have it resolved this year? Or under a Hillary or Obama adminstration? I shudder at the thought of any of the Dem nominees in charge of securing our borders and tackling the illegal immigration issue.

Was this bill “amnesty”? No, it wasn’t, as the USAToday explains today in an editorial I agree with much of:

Over time, illegal immigrants would have to pay fines and fees of more than $9,000 (plus thousands more for each family member). They’d have to prove they’re working and have no significant criminal record. They’d have to learn English and American civics. And, if they want legal permanent residence, they’d have to return to their home country to apply for it there. Getting a green card would take at least eight years, citizenship at least 13.

I don’t really consider that “amnesty” nor “fast-tracking” and I’m not sure how anyone else could, either. What am I missing?

The 1986 immigration bill Reagan signed into law (gosh, I guess he too was a ’sell-out’ and traitor to his country?) paved the way for the problems we see now, problems that Bush inherited when he was elected president. The president has essentially said when he talks about illegal immigration (and I agree with him) that it is not practical nor economical to arrest and deport the millions of illegals we have here. The cost to beef up law enforcement and build more jails to hunt for, arrest, and deport illegals would be astronomical and likely much higher than the cost it would be to keep them working here. Why not have them pay the fine and take the other steps necessary to become legal? Yes, I know that the fine would probably keep a lot of them from stepping up to the plate, but it’ll be a hell of a lot easier to have the ones who do want to step up to the plate, rather than go on an illegal immigrant round up that won’t yield the results we’d be hoping it would (as we’ve seen all too often over the last few years). Not only that, but then they’d become actual citizens of this country and they’d be paying their taxes and contributing to society just like everybody else instead of mooching off of it. That way, our law enforcement could primarily focus on more serious crimes rather than wasting their time in fruitless roundups.

What’s that? Some of the illegals commit crimes? Oh yes, believe me I know. There is not a month that goes by where I don’t hear of a car accident that was caused by an illegal immigrant caught driving drunk going the wrong way. It’s enraging. If illegals became legal, when stuff like that happens, they’d face a much stronger sentence than just ‘deportation’ because we all know that when they’re deported, the ones who do commit these crimes are just going to keep coming back and getting away with more crimes, no matter how solid our border are/will be. This problem deserves realism, not idealism.

As to the question of “why have laws penalizing people for being here illegally when you’re not going to enforce them?” It’s a good question, but one that again has to be looked at from a realistic standpoint, considering what has transpired since the 1986 immigration law was signed. The government has already screwed up by not enforcing existing immigration laws to the point that illegals have flooded our borders by the millions making deportation an unrealistic answer just due to the sheer numbers. Telling these people that they are going to be arrested and deported isn’t going to bring them out of the shadows. If anything, it’s going to push them even further back. Encourage them to come out of the shadows and become legal members of society, while at the same time strengthening ALL of our borders so the same problem doesn’t keep happening. And while we’re at it, don’t make things so bleeping hard for people who HAVE obeyed the laws when applying for citizenship in this country.

And like it or not, these illegals are contributing to our economy in positive ways (scroll), but obviously they would more if they were legal. Do I detest the way they’re draining our public resources (like in the California healthcare system, for example)? Yep. That’s why I don’t want to make it harder for them to become legal. If these people become legal, there would be less of a burden for states like California to fund healthcare (for example) because they’d be getting more tax money from more legal workers coming in to help manage the burden of keeping public services in place for those who need them. Making them legal would also force them into real job competition, with the advantage being that not only would legal American workers who’ve been here all their lives stop getting the short end of the stick, but the newly legalized American worker could actually be getting paid more over the table than under it.

Now, on to the hypocrisy factor:

1) We Republicans joke all the time about Democrats and their party purity as it relates to any number of issues and how party purity and ‘one issue’ voters are bad for the party, but on the issue of immigration, we don’t mind being purists ourselves, do we? There’s no middle room, no wiggle room. It’s just “them versus us” with both sides throwing out nasty accusations about the other. Republicans cannot complain about Democratic party purity with the same face anymore, not after this.

2) I remember reading this week a Washington Times article about how “big business” was lobbying heavily in favor of this bill, presumably because without the cheap labor, their companies would have a hard time making it. As a result of that article, there was quite a bit of snark in the conservosphere about how evil big business was, which I found a bit curious, considering that we normally don’t frown when big business directly or indirectly influences certain federal policies on taxes, among other things. The complaints I heard about that sounded suspiciously like the left’s round-the-clock non-stop complaints about evil big businesses and how they were so evil for actually wanting to make a profit. Big businesses want cheap labor? I’m truly shocked. Not.

3) The complaint about the attempt at shoving this bill through without much debate: Yeah, I totally agree, but I also remember how House Majority Leader Tom DeLay used to shove stuff through the House and make an end run around the normal legislative process to keep the opposition’s opposition to a minimum. He was applauded and admired for that, but this time around it’s not right? It’s not right - period - so a little more consistency on that argument is in order, I think.

4) One of the most outrageously hypocritical and bizarre things to come out of this drama was the sudden rampant fawning over Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND). This is a guy who had a piece published this week in National Review railing against the current immigration bill, a piece that was referenced aplenty by conservatives, some of who apparently were either duped, too ignorant to do a little background check on their new found go-to Democrat, or didn’t care because he happened to be voting alongside immigration bill opponents. Who is this man? Senator Dorgan is a solid liberal with a lifetime 85% rating from the ADA and he did not oppose the “shamnesty” bill on principle - he opposed it because he’s a slave to labor unions (in 2003, he had a 92% rating with the AFL-CIO). So, no, he wasn’t interested in protecting the American worker per se, he was interested in protecting the American unions, which, of course, translates into votes for him. In other words, like a typical liberal, he tried to make it look like he was ‘looking out for the people’ but in reality was only looking out for himself, which is, incidentally, what some of the opponents of the bill were accusing the proponents of doing! Yet somehow, I’m supposed to get whipped up into a patriotic frenzy because this solidly-liberal union guy happened to be a Democrat on the ‘anti-illegal immigration’ side? Spare me. And while the strange Dorgan-”kill bill” alliance was being forged, some of the same people calling me and others ‘open borders traitors and sell outs’ were having a grand old time chuckling about weird and ‘traitorous’ alliances between a solid conservative like Jon Kyl and a solid liberal like Ted Kennedy. Talk about chutzpah!

5) Senator Reid’s claim that the Senate was taking “too long” to vote on this bill. Um, get a clue, clueless. Exactly how many months did it take for the House and Senate to settle on a war supp they were confident they could get the President to sign? If anything, the opposite should have happened here where the war supp was passed and signed in short order and the immigration bill taken several months to hash out. It doesn’t take months of debate to figure out that our troops in harms way need to be funded and quickly, but it does take months to debate an immigration bill reasonable people can get behind. Duh.

6) The administration’s attitude towards criticism of the bill was just weird. I mean, how many times in the past on any number of issues have we heard the President say in one form or another that “reasonable people can disagree”? Yet over this, apparently any disagreement was unreasonable? Please. Now, I can understand if he logged online and saw all the comments from the likes of the people calling him “Jorge” and accusing him of a derelection of duty on the issue of immigration because he supposedly wanted to ’sell out to Mexico and big business’ but surely he had to have seen the other more rational criticisms coming from the likes of National Review? If he didn’t, there really must be some truth to the accusation thrown around by the left that the President is a little too insulated for his own good.

7) On the other hand, even though I have been disappointed in how the administration responded to the criticisms levelled at them over this bill, I was a little surprised to see the reactions to the criticism from some of those opposed to the bill. The level of vitriol that has been thrown at the President over this issue for years has been voluminous, so at some point he and others in the admin were bound to respond back in kind. That’s not an excuse, BTW, just a speculation at an explanation. The President is supposed to be above the fray and not engage in some of the same arguments used against him, all the same, people shouldn’t be shocked when it happens. Yes, a lot of the people who felt personally attacked by the President and the admin were upset because they’ve been loyal to him through thick and thin yet some of those same people were the very ones engaged in the “Jorge” “sell out” “impeachment” arguments. When some people on the right start making attacks on the President that resemble something the Nutroots left would say, in all likelihood someone in the admin - sometimes even the President himself - is going to bite back. Think Joe Scarborough. We have always loved it when the President has fought back against some of the more outrageous criticism from the left over the policies he advocates, yet don’t like it so much when he uses some of that same bite against certain critics who don’t sound any different than those on the left.

Have you been discouraged over the President’s stance on the issue to the point you’re asking yourself “I’ve been loyal to the bone to this President, and this is the thanks I get?” Well, the Anchoress provided a reminder this week of just how much the President has done for us and if you click on this post and scroll about midway down, you’ll see. Has he been perfect? No. In fact, there are times when the President has driven us absolutely nuts (like the admin’s tepid and defensive response to the fired attorneys non-scandal, for starters). But in the heat of the moment and with all the back and forth about this issue, we have forgetten about all the other stances he’s taken that we’ve agreed with and cheered him over. Now more than ever is a good time for a reminder of that.

It’s going to take me a while to get over how this debate was waged by both sides. To say I’m disillusioned would be an understatement. I’m starting to see calls for ‘healing’ in the conservosphere over this issue. For me, it’ll be a while before that happens. Instead of handling the issue with class and maturity, the debate over the years on this issue has disintegrated into back and forth name-calling with claims of the opposition being ‘traitors’ or ‘bigots,’ and came full circle this last week - not very mature, not at all healthy for the overall public discourse, and certainly not worthy of being in the majority in DC. While in the meantime, the rational arguments on either side of the debate have all but been ignored or marginalized. We’ve proven - with this debate - beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we can’t have disagreement in this party without turning it into a schoolyard brawl. Furthermore, we’ve shown that when all is said and done and the dust is cleared, that we refuse to take responsiblity for our reckless rhetoric towards each other and in turn do what the left routinely does when they start playing the “shift the blame” game: We blame it on Bush.

Why are we ripping ourselves apart? In spite of our disagreements, we are supposed to be on the same team. Getting the Senate to wait on voting on the immigration bill when they were initially trying to shove it through, and then getting the Senate to essentially ‘kill’ the bill for now - all of that could have been accomplished without conservatives turning on each other like they were mortal enemies. Is this how we’re going to act everytime we disagree with each other (and we know this isn’t the first time this has happened)? If so, count me out.

It’s never a bad thing in the aftermath of a battle to reflect back and figure out where we went wrong, and how we can do better.

We can do better. We must do better.

——

Bonus: Though he’s come out in opposition of the “shamnesty” bill, here’s a flashback on Fred Thompson:

However, in the Senate, Thompson voted in 1998 for a bill that established a temporary farm worker program, similar to the guest worker program supported by Bush.

John Vinson, president of American Immigration Control, said no candidate is perfect but believes there are reasons to oppose Thompson.

“I’m happy he condemned the bill in the Senate,” Vinson told Cybercast News Service. “But I’m bothered he doesn’t seem to think we should encourage them to go back.”

Do you believe Thompson’s being truthful, or just rolling with the anti-illegal immigration bill tidal wave?

Talk to me.

——-

Think I’m the only one who feels this way? I’ve already noted one post by the Anchoress, but here are a few others who’ve been similarly frustated: Dafydd at Big Lizards, J’s Cafe Nette, Sigmund, Carl, and Alfred, Beth at MY VRWC, Lorie Byrd, Dee aka Little Miss Chatterbox

—–Note:

1:34 AM: I have done some minor editing of this post for clarification and spell-checking to this post in the last hour, but the central point of the post has not changed.


26 posted on 06/12/2007 4:01:04 AM PDT by saveliberty (Prayer blizzard for Tony and Jill Snow and their family.)
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To: saveliberty

“Do you believe Thompson’s being truthful, or just rolling with the anti-illegal immigration bill tidal wave?”

I think he waiting to see which direction the wind blows.


28 posted on 06/12/2007 4:06:09 AM PDT by Kimberly GG (DUNCAN HUNTER '08.....lframerica.com.....MARCH TO TAKE BACK AMERICA)
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To: saveliberty
“I have done some minor editing of this post”

Do you a Reader’s Digest version?

55 posted on 06/12/2007 4:34:28 AM PDT by WKB (It's hard to tell who's more afraid of Fred Thompson; The Dims or the rudibots.)
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To: saveliberty
I think what one concludes, between this issue and things like Muellers use of the FBI counterterror plane for his personal junkets, is that this crowd has been in Washington too long, is too arrogant and complacent, and have lost the public trust. They cannot solve this issue because they just lack the bonas fides to be "honest brokers."

I think we need to leave it for the time being, move along, and see if the next crowd can fix it - they probably can't either.

66 posted on 06/12/2007 4:38:17 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: saveliberty

I am greatly unimpressed by your exegesis.

Sorry, but George Bush and the Republican Party are going to pay dearly on this one.

They cannot dump 15 to 45 million Z1, Z2, and Z3 peasant laborers on the American public without consequence.

Your reference to Fred Thompson and the 1998 immigration bill is extremely disingenuous (there’s a lot of that coming from your side these days).

Fred Thompson did not foist that bill upon Americans, nor did he try to ramrod it through Congress, nor did he push it on four separate occasions despite overwhelming opposition from his Party or constituents, nor did he insult and berate them, and finally, he didn’t encourage Republican legislators to spit in the faces of their constituents in an effort to “show leadership and courage”.

These are all matters of principle and belief.


69 posted on 06/12/2007 4:40:32 AM PDT by angkor
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To: saveliberty
Was this bill “amnesty”? No, it wasn’t, as the USAToday explains today in an editorial I agree with much of:

Over time, illegal immigrants would have to pay fines and fees of more than $9,000 (plus thousands more for each family member). They’d have to prove they’re working and have no significant criminal record. They’d have to learn English and American civics. And, if they want legal permanent residence, they’d have to return to their home country to apply for it there. Getting a green card would take at least eight years, citizenship at least 13.

I don’t really consider that “amnesty” nor “fast-tracking” and I’m not sure how anyone else could, either. What am I missing?

You're missing quite a lot. To put your claim that the Bush-Kennedy-McCain bill isn’t amnesty in the best possible light, you are uninformed about what the bill would do.

USA Today’s claim that it isn’t amnesty is disingenuous at best. None of the fines, or the work requirement, or the requirement they learn English, have any effect on anyone who doesn’t apply for “permanent” legal residency and later citizenship.

The day the law passes all 12 to 20 million illegal aliens can apply for “probationary” legal residence. This probationary legal residence status has to be granted or denied within 24 hours of the application and never expires.

It allows the aliens to enter and leave the country as they please. It allows them to work, gives them their own Social Security account, it allows them access to social services, etc. The probationary residents will be able to do everything a permanent resident can do. There are no fines, no requirements, and no expiration date on the probationary status.

The only difference between “probationary” legal residence and permanent legal residence is the probationary people can’t apply to become citizens. That is the only difference between the two. Anyone who doesn’t apply for “permanent” status doesn’t pay a fine, back taxes, or anything else. They just get their crimes forgiven and rewarded with legal status.

The bill also expressly grants amnesty to the criminal employers who’ve been hiring the scofflaws.

Anyone who tells you the Bush-Kennedy-McCain bill isn’t amnesty isn’t being honest with you or is totally ignorant of the facts.

94 posted on 06/12/2007 5:00:45 AM PDT by SUSSA
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To: saveliberty

“Over time, illegal immigrants would have to pay fines and fees of more than $9,000 (plus thousands more for each family member). They’d have to prove they’re working and have no significant criminal record. They’d have to learn English and American civics. And, if they want legal permanent residence, they’d have to return to their home country to apply for it there. Getting a green card would take at least eight years, citizenship at least 13.”

Just curious, what happens if they don’t prove they’re working and have not criminal record? What happens if they refuse to learn English and American civics? Do we deport them? We don’t have the will to do it now, why would we in the future?

What if they’re not interested in citizenship, just in avoiding being hassled by ICE while they work here and receive benefits?

My guess is many illegal immigrants would like citizenship, but not if it costs them thousands of dollars, background checks, etc. Why, if they can just continue to work and not be hassled?

In practical terms, the real accomplishment of this bill would be to simply know who the illegal immigrants are, not to secure our borders, or make more of them citizens, or get them to vote for you. That’s assuming they want to give that information, for which there is no significant incentive if there isn’t any enforcement.


118 posted on 06/12/2007 5:15:25 AM PDT by ex-NFO
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To: saveliberty

Wow, that’s a lot for you to write in one comment.


124 posted on 06/12/2007 5:22:28 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: saveliberty

Can you elaborate? Kidding. :)

Seriously, being told I’m behaving badly for expecting my tax dollars to be spent wisely and responsibly is a bitter pill to swallow. Secure borders are a higher priority to me than AIDS in Africa. AIDS isn’t that hard not to get.

That pill’s *almost* as hard to swallow as the line of BS that Mr. Snow just fed us about the feds really, REALLY meaning they’ll enforce the laws this time!

If they’d been doing their job the past six years I might nibble at the line. However, President Bush (and previous administrations, yes) has willfully and deliberately let it come to this so I’m not biting.

Yep, I’m as hard-headed as President Bush.


134 posted on 06/12/2007 5:27:13 AM PDT by Nickname
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To: saveliberty
Great rant! "What oft was thought [by me anyway, albeit in fragmentary form], but ne'er so well expressed."
137 posted on 06/12/2007 5:28:16 AM PDT by maryz
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To: saveliberty
I don’t really consider that “amnesty” nor “fast-tracking” and I’m not sure how anyone else could, either. What am I missing?

What she's missing--and what the bill misses--is that, given past behavior history, the vast majority of illegals aren't going to WANT to get permanent resident status or citizenship. Why should they? They can get a probationary Z-visa in one day, and that gives them, what, four years?

We've altered things in this country to the point where they don't NEED citizenship or even permanent residency...or hell, even legal temporary residency. Right now, without any proof of legal status, or with easily forged documents, an illegal can: own property, own a car, drive a car, hold a job, get healthcare, get schooling, and basically anything else a citizen can do except (legally) own a firearm, or vote. So why should they pay $9,000 in fines?

That's the difference between this generation of immigrants and all prior to them, including more recent ones like the "boat people" from Southeast Asia in the 1970s. This group does not, in general, need nor want citizenship. They're doing just fine as guest workers. They don't need nor want to assimilate. They're not Mexican-Americans or Guatemalan-Americans or ANYTHING-Americans. They're Mexican or Guatemalan or whatever.

And that's where the bill falls down. It assumes that these 12-20+ million folks that are here will line up for legal work status, permanent resident status, and then maybe citizenship, paying fines along the way. But if they don't need to, why should they? It's assuming behavior that this generation of illegal immigrants simply hasn't shown before, because they have no need to. Then tack on the fact that you're throwing these 12-20+ million at an immigration bureaucracy that's one of the most top-to-bottom incompetent in the Federal government, and that can't handle the case load that it's got already, and you've got what basically amounts to a non-fix.

If local and state (and Federal) laws were tightened up to the point where being a citizen MEANT something, and if I had any faith that subsequent Congresses and administrations wouldn't gut the enforcement provisions and "triggers", and if I thought that ICE could actually handle the new workload without snafuing it up completely, then I think something like the Bush/Senate proposal wouldn't be so bad. But as it is, it's garbage.

The only immigration "reform" that will work is enforcement-first. Period. Crack down on illegals and their employers. Secure the border. Deport those that are caught back to their home country, no exceptions. Repeal the anchor baby provision. Once you do all that, with enforcement firmly in place FIRST, only then you can start talking about guest workers and provisional Z-visas and such. To do anything else is, in a word, amnesty.

}:-)4

141 posted on 06/12/2007 5:29:35 AM PDT by Moose4 (Just junk all across the horizon, a real highwayman's farewell...)
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To: saveliberty

Senator Byron Dorgan, an American Patriot.


183 posted on 06/12/2007 5:50:37 AM PDT by gas0linealley (.good fences make good neighbors)
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To: saveliberty

“What I despised, deplored, and was disgusted by throughout all this was the way conservatives treated each other as it related to disagreements over this issue. There were strong arguments for and against this bill, but lost in all that was the need to “one up” the opposition, whether it was Senator Graham foolishly accusing the bill’s opponents of being “bigots”, the President wrongly questioning the patriotism of conservative critics”

Well there is that, then there is the lack of movement on implementing the border fence plan that passed the Congress when Republicans were in control of the House and Senate.

Then there is Ted Kennedy’s participation in writing this bill, the same Ted Kennedy who was behind the 1966 “Reform” that he “promised” “Will not change the culture of this country”.

Then there is 6 years of basically doing nothing of worth in dealing with this problem.

And of course, there is the ignoring of the social costs of this amnesty program, estimated to be 2 trillion dollars.

“He came into the WH after being a two-term governor of the border state of Texas, and it wasn’t exactly a secret that he was in favor of naturalization then, so the positions he’s taken on the issue of illegal immigration have not been a shock to me, nor should they have been to anyone else. To accuse the President of ‘betrayal’ on this issue when his position should have been well-known from the getgo is baffling to me.”

Baffling? How surprising, so president bush is in favor of legalizing the illegal, no matter the costs to the country, and to the Republican Party, and one is “baffled”? Is it surprising that the US public is 3 to 1 against this bill, and this causes consternation on your part when the public rightfully rebukes such an initiative?

“I can’t count the number of times over the years I’ve seen accusations towards the President of of “being in bed with the Mexican president” by other conservatives, calling the president “Jorge,” putting his face on the Mexican peso, assertions that the president is a ’sell-out’ and ‘apparently doesn’t care about national security’ which is total BS, because he’s taken a lot of crap from the usual suspects on the left about the Patriot Act, Gitmo, warentless wiretapping - you name it. Just about every measure the President has taken in order to reduce the chances of another attack on our soil”

Strange that one points to Gitmo, while at the same time there is an open and unobstructed path of entry for any Al Qaeda member who has 300 dollars for plane ride to Mexico, I’m afraid the lack of border security puts into question just how comprehensive our security scheme is, if Al Qaeda can learn to fly a jetliner, surely they can buy a plane ticket and walk 20 miles in the desert.

Sadly, Jorge is quite accurate, as is the president’s picture on the peso with illegals in the background, that is the appearance and the reality of today’s US-Mexican Border.

“If” the President had shown more resolve to deal with this issue over the previous 6 years of his term, he might have a bit more credibility when he asks the US public to “Trust him” on this issue.

“And as I noted earlier, if we don’t get this issue resolved soon, it may very well be in the hands of a Democrat administration to deal with. Which would you rather see? Have it resolved this year? Or under a Hillary or Obama adminstration? I shudder at the thought of any of the Dem nominees in charge of securing our borders and tackling the illegal immigration issue.”

Fascinating, so it is better to be hit from behind then from the front? A Dem admin is obviously opposed to any tightening of the immigration laws and enforcement, strangely so is president bush, the difference is many of the people who voted for president bush, who also have spent hours of their own time supporting president bush during his electoral campaigns, expected president bush to actually behave differently then the democrats on this issue, a sort real distinction was looked for, sadly, that hasn’t happened.

“The 1986 immigration bill Reagan signed into law (gosh, I guess he too was a ’sell-out’ and traitor to his country?) paved the way for the problems we see now, problems that Bush inherited when he was elected president. The president has essentially said when he talks about illegal immigration (and I agree with him) that it is not practical nor economical to arrest and deport the millions of illegals we have here. The cost to beef up law enforcement and build more jails to hunt for, arrest, and deport illegals would be astronomical and likely much higher than the cost it would be to keep them working here. Why not have them pay the fine and take the other steps necessary to become legal? Yes, I know that the fine would probably keep a lot of them from stepping up to the plate, but it’ll be a hell of a lot easier to have the ones who do want to step up to the plate, rather than go on an illegal immigrant round up that won’t yield the results we’d be hoping it would (as we’ve seen all too often over the last few years). Not only that, but then they’d become actual citizens of this country and they’d be paying their taxes and contributing to society just like everybody else instead of mooching off of it. That way, our law enforcement could primarily focus on more serious crimes rather than wasting their time in fruitless roundups.”

Purely pablum, we haven’t even tried to enforce the law, and now that president bush has ignored the problem for 6 years, the law cannot be enforced?

So President Bush, the highest Law Enforcement Officer in the land, is refusing to enforce the laws of the United States?

That would mean that he owes an apology to everyone who has been deported or refused immigration status, after all if the law is the standard, then if that standard is no upheld equally, then the person who is applying that standard as part of their job is doing so selectively, and that is repugnant to the rule of law.

The President seems to be saying through his support of this bill:

“I don’t like this law and refuse to enforce it, so write a new one that I do like then I’ll enforce that one?”

That is what Democrats do.


189 posted on 06/12/2007 5:53:10 AM PDT by padre35 (GWB chose Amnesty as his hill to die on, not Social Security reform.....that speaks much)
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To: saveliberty

Applause to you for your honesty, and laser-sharp observations! I am against illegal immigration, or the blanket “forgiveness” of lawbreakers, not just border-crossers, and believe in enforcement first. But your post really nails that the battle has become poisonous within our own party. Fear and the anonymity of the internet seem to have fueled the vitriol.

We can keep up the venom and remain the minority party in this country at all levels for a long time, while the rest of the world turns towards conservatism. Or we can restore logic and civility to the debate, like conservatives should, and you brilliantly demonstrated. Thank you.


199 posted on 06/12/2007 5:56:51 AM PDT by alwaysconservative (I am not loved by God because I am special: I am special because I am loved by God.)
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To: saveliberty
I read that when you posted the link, so I would say you don't help your case by spamming the thread with the whole thing later! :-)

There are some very valid points in there (e.g., nobody seemed to care about W's views on immigration when I spoke of them years ago, yet now people say he's "betraying" them), but there are some subtle mistakes in this piece. For example,

Just about every measure the President has taken in order to reduce the chances of another attack on our soil has been vilified by the left. He’s been accused of going ‘too far’ so let’s not kid ourselves by thinking that because he doesn’t take the typical conservative view on illegal immigration, that he’s not concerned about our national security.
Something isn't "good" just because it is villified by the Left. These measures were all Big Government moves and--Democrat-like--skirt the main issue if you leave the barn door itself (the border) open. Support of these measures can be made only in the context of a full security package.
200 posted on 06/12/2007 5:56:56 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: saveliberty
I don’t really consider that “amnesty” nor “fast-tracking” and I’m not sure how anyone else could, either. What am I missing?

Are those would-be immigrants -- who respect our laws and have applied to enter the U.S. through proper legal channels, but are still languishing in other countries -- going to get legal status here sooner than the illegals? Are they going to be reimbursed for the difference in income they'd have had if they came illegally instead?

Amnesty would be merely a matter of excusing the criminals from punishment, but this bill goes far beyond that to actually reward them for their criminal behavior, at the expense of both law-abiding Americans and law-abiding people who want to become Americans.

232 posted on 06/12/2007 6:24:03 AM PDT by Sloth (The GOP is to DemonRats in politics as Michael Jackson is to Jeffrey Dahmer in babysitting.)
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To: saveliberty; Sam Ketcham

#26. Fred flashback. The real Fred Thompson


376 posted on 06/12/2007 11:09:57 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Terri's Legacy List Contact: 8mmmauser & REMEMBER TERRI IN CAMPAIGN 2008)
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To: saveliberty
I don’t really consider that “amnesty” nor “fast-tracking” and I’m not sure how anyone else could, either. What am I missing?

It's amnesty because people who entered this country by violating the law will get what they came here for - citizenship - without facing the established penalties for illegal entry.

Moreover, the services to which they are entitled as citizens, most notably Social Security, they'll receive without having paid in. That means I'm supporting their retirements, too.

I admire the heck out of Tony Snow, but this bill was just awful from the getgo, deserves to die, and I feel badly for him having to put earrings on a hog in public. I don't get upset about a lot of things but this bill really has me spitting mad.

I've been nice about it, and civil about it, but my meaning to my elected officials has been plain: no amnesty.

381 posted on 06/12/2007 11:16:36 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Fred.)
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To: saveliberty
Lame. If you don't like the political process in this country, go watch American Idol or Dancing with the Stars. Politics is and always has been a rough-and-tumble endeavor, so feelings are bound to be hurt once in a while. The GOP has earned the scorn heaped upon it over the past couple of years because they have lost their way. This immigration bill is just the latest example of the blatant stupidity of those at the top of the party. They had a chance last year to put together a worthwhile bill, and they blew it.
424 posted on 06/12/2007 12:41:47 PM PDT by Major Matt Mason (We need a third party to return to a two-party system.)
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To: saveliberty

If Jorge is paying you by the word to carry his water for him, you ought to be ready for a comfortable pension.


425 posted on 06/12/2007 12:44:29 PM PDT by mkjessup (Jan 20, 2009 - "We Don't Know. Where Rudy Went. Just Glad He's Not. The President. Burma Shave.")
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To: saveliberty; All

Call it what you wish, amnesty or otherwise. What counts is that the Senate bill legalizes aliens residing in the USA that should not be here to begin with, i.e., have entered the country illegally or overstayed temporary visas. In addition the guest worker provisions of the Senate bill legalizes more illegal aliens, some of whom will overstay their ‘visits’ like the millions of others who have overstayed any of our other guest worker/visa requirements. Below is a list of the current temporary visa programs. I count 20 in all, not including travel for vacations, conferences, seminars and the like, by foreigners for which requirements vary by country of origin. It should be noted that the current Senate bill says nothing new about temporary agricultural workers. Current law covers those folks.

The Senate bill also does not address the issue of “anchor babies,” i. e., which basically assumes that anyone born on US soil, other than those exempted by war or treaty, is considered a citizen. However, the Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled whether or not the Fourteenth Amendment grants children of illegal aliens automatic citizenship.

The current, proposed Senate bill, recently put on hold by the last cloture vote which failed, adds at least three more classes of visas, Z1, Z2 and Z3, which legitimizes the residency of those illegal aliens residing in the US as of January 1, 2007. It also expands the numbers of visas that can be issued in other current classifications.

Employment Visas
H-1B
H-2A
H-2B
H-3
O-1
Business Visas
L-1
I
E-1
E-2
Education Visas
J-1
H-3
M-1
F-1
Fiancee - Marriage
K-1
K-3
Other Visa Categories
B-1(travel-biz travel)
B-2 (travel-biz travel)
C (transit)
D (vessel crew)
R (religious)


427 posted on 06/12/2007 12:50:18 PM PDT by gpapa
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