Posted on 06/03/2007 3:55:06 AM PDT by Alas Babylon!
With respect, why do you continue to assert/imply and then reply to points and claims I did not make? I never said this problem "came up all of a sudden". I explicitly acknowledged it had been mishandled by our national leadership through several prior administrations.
It is not the existence of the problem which has changed, it is the magnitude and the American people's awareness of the problem which has changed. The reason why this issue seems to have "come up all of a sudden" is that our elite oligarchs, including President Bush, have been extremely successful in deflecting interest in it, in keeping the focus off it, and in quietly sliding through measures and changes which will have monumentally destructive effects on the fundamental structure and nature of our country and society, all the while avoiding the type of free and open public debate necessary for a sovereign nation composed of free citizens.
Why do you think conservatives want smaller government? Do you really believe that big government is efficient? Where does the boondoggle start and the mismanagement end?
I have no idea where you came up with these items in the context of this discussion. Perhaps in another discussion we'll have an opportunity to address them, but they are off-point to this discussion and can only serve as a distraction.
As I said before, I wish you well.
Yeah..so do a bunch of folks on this thread..
And that makes opinions more special HOW?
KMWFA.
I really appreciate the kindness of my FRiends here. This thread is an oasis of respite and refuge from the increasingly stressful cacophony of other venues... /grin
Be sure to take your time and really read this....check out the fact page— the updates, etc......
I agree we can respectfully put out point of veiw over here and agree to disagree without in the main resulting to personal insults.
The sign of good mature debate which those that visit this thread all enjoy.
Just a question, why didn’t you go after your husband for child support?
Unless he’s a total loser, you could have gotten court ordered child support till each child was 18.
I did...they LAUGHED at me....
yes— they LAUGHED at me...
See— he has a warrant for his arrest, and works with the illegals doing consturction....they have no idea what STATE he is even in....they even had him in custody and never even addressed the child support issue..not once.
There are MANY laws our gov’t doesn’t bother enforcing....
You can do that snugs, but not everyone is so directed. Which is why I only lurk, but pretty much stay away at this point, which is a shame.
Bullying is not productive. Graciousness is.
Your statement - The reason why this issue seems to have “come up all of a sudden” is that our elite oligarchs, including President Bush, have been extremely successful in deflecting interest in it, in keeping the focus off it, and in quietly sliding through measures and changes which will have monumentally destructive effects on the fundamental structure and nature of our country and society, all the while avoiding the type of free and open public debate necessary for a sovereign nation composed of free citizens.
Here you are mixing up even relatively recent history. Perhaps you do work with financial firms. Perhaps not. But the single biggest positive change in going after illegal aliens, prior to this bill, was in fact a change that happened during this administration.
You may recall Jamie Gorelick’s wall of separation between agencies. You may or may not know about California’s laws governing the taxpayer information that employees may present to their employers. Prior to this administration, if an employer sent withholding information to the IRS that wasn’t a match with their records on file, the employer would be notified and would pay a $50 penalty. In fact, it becomes even clearer when a check is made on the number of exemptions claims 7 or 8, thereby submitting minimal withholdings.
This information up until recently could not be shared with any other agency due to the separation referenced above. Leaving Immigration out of the picture.
It was even worse as the state of California had enacted laws that mandated restrictions on employers for following up on bogus taxpayer ids. The rules were that the employee could present a different taxpayer id and name once per year, and the employers’ hands would be tied— they could not report that information and they could not use that information to dismiss the employee.
What occurred during this administration was the sharing of information between the IRS and ICE, which is a big deal because it’s very effective means of identifying and arresting illegals.
I am adding links (note that to date,you’ve sent none)
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/immigration.raids/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/19/immigration.raids/
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/12/12/231150/15
http://recordingsurface.blogsome.com/2006/12/18/the-raids-politics-and-innovations/
http://morningcoffee.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/ice-crackdown-on-garcia-labor-company-ohio/
From the non-conservative sources, you can see it’s not an oligarchy standing in the way. Would I be happier if they didn’t just focus on those committing ID theft? Yes. Is that a failure to uphold the law when it took 1,000 agents for one raid? No and you didn’t prove your case.
Your comments extrapolated what happened over the past few weeks—the secrecy around this bill shouldn’t have happened, the President shouldn’t have said what he did about dissenters— but to take that as how it’s been for over is years is a distortion.
One you are free to keep, but I won’t agree with it.
Regarding the commentary about small government, sorry I thought it was clear that government runs only one thing better than the private sector, referring to your unsubstantiated comments that the President chose to avoid upholding the law rather than large, government run organizations don’t always result in the best choices being made.
I wish you well also.
Cheers,
sl
;-) Are you sure that that you read this page ec?
http://www.spp.gov/myths_vs_facts.asp
BTW my dissertation many years ago was on the EU. The EU was started as an economic collaboration which,when it kept the member states separate, was very successful. The origins of the EU didn’t mean that there was no border control. That is much different from the integrated government that they tried to impose, but failed. LOL Even Chirac’s own people rejected it.
Integrated government wouldn’t even be on the table in this side of the world.
Not that this makes you feel any better,but if the pressure is up to the south of our borders to allow free trade and allow regular citizens to have control over their own financial destinies, fewer people will flee.
Thanks for all your hard work.
Amen to that.
So you deport all the Mexicans, where you going to get labor to do the work??
Were all “slaves” to the Man, by your definition. When did the conservative movement start sounding like a bunch of bleeding heart libs?
Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters
Pray for W and Our Troops
Yes— I have read that page...
stay tuned...I am on lunch— but tonight I will be finishing up my research....
I think you will be amazed!
;-)
conservatives believe in personal accountability-
this INCLUDES following the law. We don’t spray paint the Capitol, etc.....
You are in for a big surprise my friend....
stay tuned............
Cheers, ec
I read Infidel—some parts were so bad I was up all night as the scenes were so awful.
::::
Uh-oh - I just bought it - it’s “in the mail”
(along with The Dreamgirls DVD)
If you are really interested in an honest historical comparison instead of one that merely fits your political opinions, read about the Know Nothings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_movement
Comparing people who voluntarily come to this country with the slaves kidnapped and forced here is absurd.
Some of the arguments being thrown around here today are almost word for word repeats of the same arguments the Know Nothings made against the Irish and the German immigrants in the 1840s.
These are the arguments where you lose me. I can agree with the arguments that base themselves on the idea that this is an overly bureaucratic, unworkable bill. That adding another layer of bureaucracy is a mistake. However. some of the other arguments being put forward are pure emotion based rantings with utterly NO basis in any factual reality. The argument that the immigrants will some how “destroy the Republic” or “Demographics are fate” are pure nativist rantings.
There is utterly no evidence that Hispanic Immigrants will do any such thing. Anymore then the Germans, the Jews, the Irish, the Blacks, the Chinese, the Japanese et al did. So if you want to argue this issue, I suggest you all stick to the economic or small Govt argument and leave the rest out of it. But when you start arguing that the Hispanics are the “Wrong sort of Immigrants”, you lose.
Every immigrant group has it share of problem children. But we have gangs and thugs that are native born Americans too. Most of the Hispanics I meet, or served with in the US Military, are descent hard working respectable people. So if you all want to win this argument, I suggest you leave the more emotional, over blown rhetoric behind and concentrate on making a calm rational factual argument. Too many of the people who you need to convince own ancestors faced the same sort of Nativist opposition when then came to this country to be convinced by these sorts of Nativist arguments.
So if you want to argue this issue and win, argue it on the merits NOT on some hysteric nonsense about “the Mexicans are coming, the Mexicans are coming”.
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