Posted on 05/23/2007 2:50:09 PM PDT by Esther Ruth
“We can love the child (and love his mother and extended kin) without approving the seriously objectionable choice of nonmarital procreation and the marginalization of fatherhood. The latter has implications that go way, way, WAY beyond the story of the, frankly, likeable Mary Cheney and her beautiful child”
I don’t disapprove. You can.
“No one said lesbians can’t be “nice” people. Its their lifestyle choice that is not nice.”
Their lifestyle choice is no business of mine. If they are good people, pay their taxes, love America, and take care of their baby - and respect their parents as Mary Cheney does - then I could care less with whom they have sex and choose to make a life with.
"Morality" is an esoteric hobgoblin.
Morality and all of its associated ideals are rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.
Personally I think it would provide a vessel for the anti-Christ.
My opinion would be that if this did indeed occurr, the human doppleganger would be considered a non-human sans a God-Given soul and would be worth of termination at any cost (without the ramifications of legal action).
Are you saying you'd hunt down and murder human clones because they might not have an invisible, undetectable soul??
The child is a fantasy object, a fetish produced for the satisfaction of two perverts.
Pity him. He will never know his real father.
Taking a break from talking about fetishes? Short-lived break, I see.
You have trouble with the language?
When you grow up someday and read what a fetish is and your daddy tells you about the birds and the bees, you might know.
Until then, it is like this...
Your problem is that you want to deny that reality. You cannot play god with the creation of life as a homosexual, you are denied connection with the eternal in a temporal, procreant sense. Yet you will continue to reach out for the eternal with a fetish (an object of worship).
It is no more real than those things that seem to appear before us in a dream.
It is funny that a supposed lesbian takes a man's sperm into her vagina then continues to fantasize she did it without a man. The same is true for male homosexuals - - they cannot reproduce without a real vagina, they have no womb and never will... they must submit to the order of nature and do so while continuing to lie to themselves and everyone else about it.
It is as I said, that baby boy is a fantasy object, a fetish for two perverts who deny the natural order of this world.
Nature does not require your permission. It is not even asked for.
You seem a wee bit obsessed.
Did you know there is a study that showed that young men who were most vocally anti-homosexual were the most sexually aroused when shown gay pornography? I wonder if these men ever found out the results of the study they participated in.
That study just came to mind. Back to the topic at hand.
I always enjoy reading your posts. Your sophisticated witticisms are reminiscent of the writing of Jane Austen, Anthony Trollope, or William Thackeray.
Your username says it all.
You raise some logical questions and in a very civil manner. (Thank you.) I don’t know the answers to any of those questions. They do sound contradictory. I just know we think with a mortal mind. We don’t understand Gods mind. I think He does things which appear wrong to bring about a particular result. And God is God. He can change His mind if He wants to. But I believe it is so everything will come together as planned. At any rate, He doesn’t say anything about smoking cigarettes to be wrong either but to hear people tell it, that is a sin worse than murder. He does say that its what you use your body for that is immoral and will condemn you, not what you put in it such as food and drink and probably cigarettes.
Great point that is exactly what the left think
In what why is Chelsey warped?
why = way
Tuesday, May 29th, 2007
Personally Mr. ahayes,
I really think that you have a bit of a homosexual fixation of some form or fashion in which you are using the Free Republic Forums in which to exorcise those demons or anxieties in a public format from the safety and anonymity behind the keyboard and monitor of your computer. You are aroused by the agitation that your statements cause, and quite frankly, they are a sign of cowardnice and passive-aggressive tendencies.
With regard to the clone byproducts, why yes, I would advocate the elimination (via death and or humane execution) of the cloned individuals. In my opinion, they have no God-given souls and are the byproduct of man’s usurpation of God’s Divine Will in our Human Creation.
In a previous post on this thread, you insinuated that there is a possibility of God and satan as inhabiting the same persona ... this is a VERY GRAVE DISTORTION on your part, and unfortuneately, many, many other people such as yourself who have fallen to this seductive deception are in the same boat as you.
If you believe that Christ Jesus is indeed the Son of God (i.e. the earthly incarnate of God Himself ... He (Jesus) shall be known as both the “Son of God and the Son of Man” and also the very individual in which the Pentatuch foreshadows as the Messias (and which the Jews / Gentiles eventually rejected) ... THEN, there should be no argument whatsoever on your part for a contradictory argument.
I cite for example, when Mary Magdalene was about to be stoned to death by the Sanhedrin for adultury and prostitution, what did Jesus do? He wrote the sins of the potential stone throwers in the dust and issued an ultimatum to them that “He who is without sin may cast the first stone.” And what happened, down to the last man, they realized Jesus’ power to read their souls and thereby dropped their instruments of death. And what did he say to Mary Magdelene ... remember hard now ahayes ... He said, “Go and sin no more” (and she became one of his closest confidants outside of the twelve Apostles). No in your skewed thinking, why would God (satan in your reasoning) command someone to “Go and sin no more”, whereby satan wreaks havoc via sin, lies, temptation, and a litany of other devious methods and traps? Come on ahayes, how are you going to use your freethinker cap on that one?
Soooo ... your deduction of God and satan as being the same individual or inhabiting the same persona is a moot and distorted point which is stoked by your personal pride and (I sincerely believe this) some event in your life which has caused you both personal and spiritual trauma. And no, I am not “projecting” this assumption onto you. Been there, done that, got my card punched and experienced this myself. Know the feeling and am able to detect it within others. I consider it a gift of empathy.
And other thing which tears down your belief or postulation that both God and satan coexist in some perverted symbiotic relationship, nada. When Jesus was tempted on the Mount by satan who showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world and tempted him by proposing that he (satan) would submit all of them to his (Jesus’)reign -ONLY- if Jesus would bow down and submit to satan, what was Jesus’s reply ... come on now, ahayes, think back really, really hard ...
Taken from the World’s Oldest Bible (published 1583 Anno Domini), The Douay Rheims Roman Catholic Haydock Bible in:
The Gospel of St. Matthew, Chapter IV,
1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. 3 And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,
6 And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8* Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, 9 And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. 10 Then Jesus saith to him: 12 And when Jesus had heard that John was delivered up, he retired into Galilee.
*Explanation to verse number VIII: “Shewed him”... That is, pointed out to him where each kingdom lay; and set forth in words what was most glorious and admirable in each of them. Or also set before his eyes, as it were in a large map, a lively representation of all those kingdoms.
Now, ahayes, if according to your perverted and uneducated deduction of Scriptures, how in the world do you manage to correllate the coexistence of both God and satan coexisting in the same being? If Jesus commanded as in the statement above (Matthew IV, verse VIII, “Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil left him; and behold angels came and ministered to him.”) If in your perverted and heretical deductions, why would Jesus (as God made Man) allow himself to be inhabited by satan who is the perveyor of sinfullness, evil, discord, and suffering? Then to go onto command satan to “Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE.” This means satan is not serving himself, his minions, demons, spirits, evil, etc. Satan has been cast into the abyss and uses the weaknesses of man in which to conduct and manipulate them into doing his evil bidding. End of argument. There are many, many more examples in which Jesus rebukes satan and his minions for the pain and suffering that they inflict on wayward souls. To believe that God and satan coexist in the same sphere as patriarchs over Creation is a clear sign of demonic oppression upon your part. You have been inflicted and are oppressed. Granted, I know that you’ll come back with a retort to my post here, however, it will be on your own terms and will occlude or skim over the more soul-searching parts which cause you pain, and thereby, more than likely, you’ll go on the attack and obfuscate the possiblility to do some real soul searching.
Jesus said, “I AM THE WAY. I AM THE TRUTH. AND I AM THE LIGHT. NO MAN SHALL RETURN TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.”
I will be praying for you soul (as I have over the last several days now) and once again, I mean no harm to you personally. Sometimes an assertive stance is what is needed. And on a final note here, drop the Islamic fascination ... the faith is a false faith based upon Muhammad who basically was a paranoid schizophrenic, with suicidal inclinations, a murderous and oppressive worldview, and a pedophile. Don’t believe me, read up on it in a book by a fantastic schollar of Islamic Studies by the name of Mr. Robert Spencer. His book is entitled “Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West”. Published by Regnery Publishing, 2003. ISBN 0-89526-100-6 I was bamboozled into thinking that Islam was “a religion of Peace”, but after some serious study (including the reading of the aforementioned title), the scales from my eyes dropped and now I can see clearly.
Peace out to you,
Front 242
There ya go. It’s already started. Robots are going to be given human status.
You ROCK! Now this is what this thread needs ... more people backing up one another to counteract heresy. If the Apostles could convert thousands and thousands of pagans who would have killed them in a blink of an eye, or for the Apostles to go forth into Jerusalem and its neighboring countries to preach the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (driven, consoled, and EMPOWERED by the Holy Ghost), what could they fear ... NOTHING. Not jail, torture, ridicule, desecration of the body, removal of thier meager belongings, torture of their followers, etc. ... they lived by one adage and one adage only ... Jesus was the manifestation of what they and the Jewish People had so longed to see. And the flip side of that coin is that they rejected Him outright as a deceiver / possible mental case. I just wish that I had the ability and verboseness in which to convince others (without high pressure tactics) to open up those scarred and very hardened / obstinate portions of their hearts and minds to God’s Will for them and all human beings. I speak from experience and have a gift (or what I like to think of a gift) of being able to empathize or analytically bore into one’s psyche in order to feel their pains. It comes from A LOT of reading, introspection, and reduction of pride into humbleness (which I fail at time and time again). :)
Catch you later,
Front 242
That sabbatical is looking better day by day.
THIS IS A REVISON TO THE POST THAT I POSTED TO AHAYES ABOVE IN POST NUMBER 696. I LEFT OUT AN IMPORTANT PASSAGE FROM THAT PREVIOUS POST, OF WHICH I HAVE NOW CORRECTED AND INCLUDED IN THIS POST. Sorry for the error.
Tuesday, May 29th, 2007
Personally Mr. ahayes,
I really think that you have a bit of a homosexual fixation of some form or fashion in which you are using the Free Republic Forums in which to exorcise those demons or anxieties in a public format from the safety and anonymity behind the keyboard and monitor of your computer. You are aroused by the agitation that your statements cause, and quite frankly, they are a sign of cowardnice and passive-aggressive tendencies.
With regard to the clone byproducts, why yes, I would advocate the elimination (via death and or humane execution) of the cloned individuals. In my opinion, they have no God-given souls and are the byproduct of man’s usurpation of God’s Divine Will in our Human Creation.
In a previous post on this thread, you insinuated that there is a possibility of God and satan as inhabiting the same persona ... this is a VERY GRAVE DISTORTION on your part, and unfortuneately, many, many other people such as yourself who have fallen to this seductive deception are in the same boat as you.
If you believe that Christ Jesus is indeed the Son of God (i.e. the earthly incarnate of God Himself ... He (Jesus) shall be known as both the “Son of God and the Son of Man” and also the very individual in which the Pentatuch foreshadows as the Messias (and which the Jews / Gentiles eventually rejected) ... THEN, there should be no argument whatsoever on your part for a contradictory argument.
I cite for example, when Mary Magdalene was about to be stoned to death by the Sanhedrin for adultury and prostitution, what did Jesus do? He wrote the sins of the potential stone throwers in the dust and issued an ultimatum to them that “He who is without sin may cast the first stone.” And what happened, down to the last man, they realized Jesus’ power to read their souls and thereby dropped their instruments of death. And what did he say to Mary Magdelene ... remember hard now ahayes ... He said, “Go and sin no more” (and she became one of his closest confidants outside of the twelve Apostles). No in your skewed thinking, why would God (satan in your reasoning) command someone to “Go and sin no more”, whereby satan wreaks havoc via sin, lies, temptation, and a litany of other devious methods and traps? Come on ahayes, how are you going to use your freethinker cap on that one?
Soooo ... your deduction of God and satan as being the same individual or inhabiting the same persona is a moot and distorted point which is stoked by your personal pride and (I sincerely believe this) some event in your life which has caused you both personal and spiritual trauma. And no, I am not “projecting” this assumption onto you. Been there, done that, got my card punched and experienced this myself. Know the feeling and am able to detect it within others. I consider it a gift of empathy.
And other thing which tears down your belief or postulation that both God and satan coexist in some perverted symbiotic relationship, nada. When Jesus was tempted on the Mount by satan who showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world and tempted him by proposing that he (satan) would submit all of them to his (Jesus’)reign -ONLY- if Jesus would bow down and submit to satan, what was Jesus’s reply ... come on now, ahayes, think back really, really hard ...
Taken from the World’s Oldest Bible (published 1583 Anno Domini), The Douay Rheims Roman Catholic Haydock Bible in:
The Gospel of St. Matthew, Chapter IV,
1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. 3 And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,
6 And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8* Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, 9 And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. 10 Then Jesus saith to him: 10 THEN JESUS SAITH TO HIM: “BEGONE, satan: FOR IT IS WRITTEN, THE LORD THY GOD SHALT THOU ADORE, AND HIM OLNY SHALT THOU SERVE!” 12 And when Jesus had heard that John was delivered up, he retired into Galilee.
*Explanation to verse number VIII: “Shewed him”... That is, pointed out to him where each kingdom lay; and set forth in words what was most glorious and admirable in each of them. Or also set before his eyes, as it were in a large map, a lively representation of all those kingdoms.
Now, ahayes, if according to your perverted and uneducated deduction of Scriptures, how in the world do you manage to correllate the coexistence of both God and satan coexisting in the same being? If Jesus commanded as in the statement above (Matthew IV, verse VIII, “Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve! 11 Then the devil left him; and behold angels came and ministered to him.”)
(ahayes ... If in your perverted and heretical deductions /delusions, why would Jesus (as God made Man) allow himself to be inhabited by satan who is the purveyor of sinfullness, evil, discord, and suffering? Would Jesus serve satan and satan serve Jesus as equals as per your line of reasoning? Then how did Jesus perform exorcisms? Casting out demons by NAME. Would satan cast out demons who in essence were arbiters of his own evil works ... no! they are carrying out their duties in trying to undermine the sanctity of Christ and bring souls to ruin and confusions (hint hint here for you ahayes). Hence then, ahayes, your reasoning has no legs to stand upon.
As a contiunuation to expound on the scripture verse (Matthew Chapter I, Verses I through XII, from above, then for Jesus to go onto command satan to “Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE.”)
This means satan is not serving God alone, but himself, his minions, demons, spirits, evil, etc. Satan has been cast into the abyss and uses the weaknesses of man in which to conduct and manipulate them into doing his evil bidding. End of argument. There are many, many more examples in which Jesus rebukes satan and his minions for the pain and suffering that they inflict on wayward souls (read: yours ahayes). To believe that God and satan coexist in the same sphere as patriarchs over Creation is a clear sign of demonic oppression upon your part. You have been inflicted and are oppressed by the sin of PRIDE IN ONES SELF. Granted, I know that you’ll come back with a retort to my post here, however, it will be on your own terms and will occlude or skim over the more soul-searching parts which cause you pain, and thereby, more than likely, you’ll go on the attack and obfuscate the possiblility to do some real soul searching.
Jesus said, “I AM THE WAY. I AM THE TRUTH. AND I AM THE LIGHT. NO MAN SHALL RETURN TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.”
I will be praying for you soul (as I have over the last several days now) and once again, I mean no harm to you personally. Sometimes an assertive stance is what is needed. And on a final note here, drop the Islamic fascination and comparison to Christianity ... the faith is a false faith based upon Muhammad who basically was a paranoid schizophrenic, with suicidal inclinations, a murderous and oppressive worldview, and a pedophile. If you don’t believe me and swallow the PC pundits hook line and sinker, then I suggest that you read up on it in a book by a fantastic schollar of Anglo-Islamic Studies by the name of Mr. Robert Spencer. His book is entitled “Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West”. Published by Regnery Publishing, 2003. ISBN 0-89526-100-6
I myself was bamboozled into thinking that Islam was “a religion of Peace” for quite a long time, but after some serious study (including the reading of the aforementioned title), the scales from my eyes dropped and now I can see clearly. Islam is based upon distortion and has no validation or positive contribution to modern society (other than its artwork, architecture, music, and I believe the inherent kindness of its peoples ... who unfortunately have an identity crisis and cling to Islam as their sole means of unity). In the end, Christianity will crush underfoot all that is opposed to it.
Peace out to you,
Front 242
Mrs. Hayes.
I really think that you have a bit of a homosexual fixation of some form or fashion in which you are using the Free Republic Forums in which to exorcise those demons or anxieties in a public format from the safety and anonymity behind the keyboard and monitor of your computer.
Really? Are you sure you're not projecting? It is not I who am starting indignant threads every time homosexuality comes up in the news. If it weren't for this thread I would have just thought, "A baby, how cute!" and gone on with life. It is the scores of people on this thread who feel the need to insult Mary Cheney and her baby and generally beat the topic into the ground who have an unhealthy fixation.
You are aroused by the agitation that your statements cause, and quite frankly, they are a sign of cowardnice and passive-aggressive tendencies.
Ad hominem. How cute. I could respond in kind (I'm afraid my opinion of you is not very positive) but I don't see it would further the discussion.
With regard to the clone byproducts, why yes, I would advocate the elimination (via death and or humane execution) of the cloned individuals.
How do you know?? It's the position of most Christians that even the prevention of implantation should be avoided because it's safer to assume the soul is present already than to assume it is not and thus unintentionally commit murder. Yet you cannot know that clones do not have a soul, but you're willing to proceed with wholesale slaughter! It is safer to assume that they do have souls, so you do not unintentionally commit murder and gravely displease your God. This is a curious position for someone who is nominally pro-life!
I think many people have a naive view of the process of ensoulment. For instance, consider identical twins. The egg is fertilized and the zygote begins developing. Many would say it already has a soul. Then right about the time of implantation it splits into two and two twin embryos start developing.
If the initial zygote had a soul, what happened? Did the soul split into two? Did one embryo keep the old soul and the other get a brand new one? Is one twin SOULLESS?
The process of identical twinning is analogous to the process of cloning, the only difference is in reproductive cloning the twinning might take place decades after the initial twin is born. If you think clones are soulless, then you should also think one half of a set of twins is soulless (but which??) Additionally, since many people who were born singletons had a twin who died early in utero, that means many people walking around who are not twins might also be soulless!
The next problem arises with mosaicism. In twinning one embryo becomes two, in mosaicism two embryos become one. This again occurs very early after fertilization. Two embryos that are in contact may merge together and begin to grow into an individual. This condition is only detected in certain unusual circumstances when it is noticed that some cells from the person's body have a different genotype than the other cells in the body.
So what happened here? Did two souls become one? Did one soul die (if so, which one?) Is this person endowed with a two-soul super-soul?
These are the reasons that I think it is naive to say that, assuming the soul exists, we can say with certain when ensoulment occurs and how the soul is transmitted. Assuming souls exist, it is impossible to state with certainty that clones have no soul.
In a previous post on this thread, you insinuated that there is a possibility of God and satan as inhabiting the same persona
No, I said God's personality might be more like Satan's than we think. Considering God thinks incest and infanticide are all hunky-dory on certain occasions (leaving out completely the problems of slavery and rape of female POWs), I don't think that's all that unreasonable.
any, many other people such as yourself who have fallen to this seductive deception are in the same boat as you.
What people? The ones who think it's wrong to kill babies even if some supposed supernatural being is telling you to?
[snip he who is without sin throw the first stone passage (which, btw, is not present in the earliest manuscripts and may be a later addition)] Come on ahayes, how are you going to use your freethinker cap on that one?
Simple: God does not exist and the Bible was compiled over thousands of years from the tradition and teaching of men, so we should not expect it to be internally consistant.
Soooo ... your deduction of God and satan as being the same individual or inhabiting the same persona is a moot and distorted point which is stoked by your personal pride and (I sincerely believe this) some event in your life which has caused you both personal and spiritual trauma. And no, I am not “projecting” this assumption onto you. Been there, done that, got my card punched and experienced this myself. Know the feeling and am able to detect it within others. I consider it a gift of empathy.
In other words, yes, you are projecting. I came to the conclusion that the Judeo-Christian God could not be considered to be moral after a good deal of thought, and I don't see that anyone here is really addressing that.
And other thing which tears down your belief or postulation that both God and satan coexist in some perverted symbiotic relationship, nada.
You have misunderstood me. As I do not think that God and Satan exist, it is impossible for me to think that they are the same person. Which dispenses with the rest of your post.
And on a final note here, drop the Islamic fascination ... the faith is a false faith based upon Muhammad who basically was a paranoid schizophrenic, with suicidal inclinations, a murderous and oppressive worldview, and a pedophile.
Duh. Which distinguishes him from Joshua in what fashion? Joshua was not a pedophile so far as we know, but he certainly treated the Canaanites as badly as Mohommed treated any of his victims.
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